evangelical 360°

Ep. 20 / The Heart of Leadership: Insights from Ajith Fernando ► (Part 2)

• Host Brian Stiller • Season 1 • Episode 20

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In this captivating episode of Evangelical 360, host Brian Stiller engages with Ajit Fernando, a distinguished leader and writer, to discuss the essence of servant leadership rooted in the life of Jesus. Fernando, often regarded as the “John Stott of Asia,” unpacks the timeless lessons of leadership, emphasizing the importance of identity and the role of the Holy Spirit. Listeners will discover how Jesus embodies transformative leadership that prioritizes love, humility, and connection to God. <br><br>Fernando shares personal anecdotes and practical insights from his extensive ministry experience, revealing how daily spiritual practices reinforce a leader's strength and purpose. As they discuss pressing challenges in Christian leadership today, Fernando underscores the necessity of fostering unity and collaboration among diverse church communities. This episode serves not only as an enlightening conversation but also as a call to action for listeners to reflect on their leadership roles. Fueled by the teachings of Jesus, Stiller and Fernando challenge us all to lead with joy and compassion. Join us for this enriching discussion, and connect with the heart of leadership. Don’t forget to subscribe, share your thoughts, and leave a review!

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Brian Stiller:

Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360. My name is Brian Stiller, global Ambassador for the World Evangelical Alliance and host of this new podcast series. On Evangelical 360, I interview leaders, writers and influencers about contemporary issues impacting Christian life around the world. My hope is that it will not only be a global meeting place where faith is explored from different perspectives, but that each person listening will come away informed, encouraged, challenged and inspired. Today's guest is a friend of many decades, leader in ministry, writer and teacher, ajit Fernando. Often referred to as the John Stott of Asia, Ajith has become a worldwide influencer, not only building an effective youth ministry in Sri Lanka, but in his writings on theology, unwrapping biblical texts and helping us understand discipleship. Welcome, Ajith, nice to have you here, thank you.

Ajith Fernando:

Thank you, nice to be talking to you again.

Brian Stiller:

One of the important things that you have written on is leadership, and I remember your first book. I was a conveyor of that manuscript to a publisher and we got it published. What was the name of that book?

Ajith Fernando:

Leadership Lifestyle. That's right and that's what got me started as a writer.

Brian Stiller:

So we did a collegial activity in getting that done, but obviously, in your life, leadership has been at the very core. That's what you've done. You've done it in a way, though, that many in the West would not see as being a typical leadership style. You are quiet in a community. You are not forceful in your leadership style, so that is unique, but I think it's inviting for people then to ask what are the essentials of leadership. So today I'd like to make that the focus of our conversation. One of my favorite books is this book Jesus Driven Ministry. It's a study of Mark on leadership, and this will be instructive for us all. So, in a world where Christianity composes 2.4 billion, how is it that we continue to go back to Jesus as being the core?

Ajith Fernando:

Behind that comes a strong conviction that for us Christians, the center of Christianity is the life and work of Jesus. Not only his death but also his life as the perfect human being, the exact representation of God's nature. He is our model to follow. He is our model to follow. Christian theology not only believes in the death and resurrection and ascension and second coming of Christ, which is of course basic, but also the life of Jesus, which gives us on how we should be living. So I would say that the best source to go to to find out about life is jesus and that he is a model. So in the 90s, preparing for a conference long ago it was a world evangelical fellowship missions commission conference in Iguazu I was asked to preach on a missiology of the Trinity. In preparation for that I just went through the whole New Testament, just writing, jotting down, jotting down, jotting down everything I learned. And I found so much about Jesus that some years later I realized I read this book.

Brian Stiller:

What is there about Jesus that is so compelling that it not only drives this continuing expression, the church, but you find to be core to leadership?

Ajith Fernando:

You know, jesus inspired people, unlike some other religious leaders who were so esoteric in their teaching that it was difficult to understand. You have to go to the higher level of knowledge, otherwise you won't understand. Jesus was simply a person that can attract, that can absorb the most simple, uneducated person into becoming a great saint and also the brilliant scholar, and right through history that's been the case. You know, I think of the biggest influence in my life and my most influential Bible teacher as my mother, who was not educated. I mean, she never went beyond high school, she never went for a course on how to study the Bible, but she taught us the Bible. Then there were these other people who influenced me, like the great theologians John Stott and Carl Henry and people like that, who were brilliant scholars but both found Jesus compelling and I would say, because he was the perfect human being, that he's appealing to everyone.

Brian Stiller:

But there's something more than his ideas that are compelling. What about the essence of his life that he transfers in us following him? What is there about that that is so unique?

Ajith Fernando:

To me it's this mixture of his exalted son of man. You know, son of man is a title of exaltation of dignity in the book of Daniel and Jesus adopted that for himself. So he never denied his exalted identity. But the Son of man came to serve, and so this exalted identity expressed itself in simple servanthood, resulting in the death on a cross. So here you see a complete human being, someone whose identity was intact, completely intact, and he always marched through every situation as one who was in control, but then he also marched through every situation as one. He also marched through every situation as one who loved people, who gave himself to serve. So there is this completion of humanity in the life of Jesus which makes him worthwhile model for any human.

Brian Stiller:

I notice Ajith in Jesus' Driven Ministry book as you identify a number of principles that you discover in Jesus' ministry as expressed in Mark's gospel. You start off with the initial of identifying or identity. I find that curious. Why did that strike you as being so important as a leadership principle?

Ajith Fernando:

To tell you the truth, it was not any great theological idea that made me do that. That's simply the first thing that came in the passage that I was studying. So I have always tried to follow a passage in its canonical order.

Brian Stiller:

And what is there about identity that is critical to the leadership role.

Ajith Fernando:

I mean, there are different models of leadership, styles of leadership. Certainly, I wouldn't expect any good leader to follow my style of leadership that has to do with my personality but there are some features that all leaders have to have, and one of them is identifying with the people they serve, coming close to the people, not leading from a pedestal but coming incarnate with the people. So that, therefore, identification, is very important.

Brian Stiller:

You use the word incarnate incarnation, which refers to John's gospel about God coming in, jesus coming into humanity. So you're talking about investing yourself with the people. Why is that strategic in the leadership role? What does it do for you as a leader? What does it do for the people that you're leading?

Ajith Fernando:

For me as a leader. It helps me understand my people and having understood them, it helps inform the content of my leadership. Because if I understood that these are their needs, this is what they're going through, then I would see how does the Bible address these needs. I would say that has been the base of a lot of my teaching, of my writing. I identify a need in Sri Lanka and I say what does the Bible say about this? And I try to answer that.

Ajith Fernando:

So incarnation helps you identify issues. Incarnation also helps you appreciate people. I work with the poor and how much I have learned from them. You know dependence on god is so much easier for a poor person than for a rich person. Prayer, because they know what it is to be desperate, they can make great prayers, people of prayer. So you learn about your people through incarnation and you also realize, because you are close to people. You realize where you have failed, where you have fallen short, and you adapt your leadership style to be relevant, to be effective amongst these people to be effective amongst these people.

Brian Stiller:

You talk about Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit and the importance of knowing the Spirit, being empowered by the Spirit. Now, we've lived in a our lives, our decades of life, has lived in a world where the Pentecostal message has infiltrated all parts of the Christian church. So for you, as you look at leadership, how would you help me understand the role of the Holy Spirit in my work as a leader?

Ajith Fernando:

I would say that all that we do is done under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, done under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. So I used to hear somebody said that, charles Spurgeon, when he used to walk up to preach, he would say I believe in the Holy Spirit, I believe in the Holy Spirit. He just kept repeating that I believe in the Holy Spirit and I would say that is my approach to ministry too, and life. Everything I'm praying Lord, please help me, please use me, please help me. When I'm counseling with somebody, mentoring somebody, all the time I'm praying through the process. Please help me, please help me. That is acknowledging that what I do has to be done by the Holy Spirit, acknowledging that I'm open, open to change, open to listening to His voice. And I firmly believe, when we approach God in that kind of dependence upon God, in prayer, holy Spirit leads us.

Brian Stiller:

What does the Holy Spirit do? The Holy Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit is God. We follow Jesus. But apart from that contact and belief and trust in Jesus, how does the Holy Spirit embellish my trust and my walk with Him as a leader?

Ajith Fernando:

I think there are many things that he does that help us. For example, it says that the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God. The Holy Spirit is the one who gives us not only intellectual assurance, which comes from believing what the Bible says, but also experiential assurance Through our experience of His leading, his affirmation in some circumstantial event or something like that. The Holy Spirit has a way of giving us an experience of God which makes him real, you say.

Brian Stiller:

the filling with the Holy Spirit has two aspects in the book of Acts. One is a quality of life that should characterize all Christians. The other is an anointing for special occasions.

Ajith Fernando:

Yes, I strongly believe that when we are doing an assignment for God, we need God's enabling to do that assignment. And that's how I'm describing this word anointing, describing this word anointing and enabling to do the work that God has asked us to do. So that is the special thing enabling for a special task Whereas, on the other hand, the Holy Spirit, for example. We are told that the Holy Spirit fills us with love. You know, we are filled with the Holy Spirit, romans 5.5. Through the Spirit, love is poured into our hearts. He comes and he indwells us, fills us with himself and changes our character little by little. So those are the two aspects of the Spirit's work. One is transforming us. Other one is using us for special tasks.

Brian Stiller:

We live in an age where you and I know of many people and maybe in our own lives, we talk about being burned out, being exhausted, being at the end of our rope. You note in one of your principles, through Mark, that Jesus getting away in a reprieve was critical to leadership. How have you found that to be essential for your own leadership role and for the strategies that you employ as a leader?

Ajith Fernando:

I would say the first retreat is spending time with God every day. Many people see this as a discipline that has to be followed, but to me, when I spend time with God, what I'm doing is buttressing my identity as a child of God. What do you mean by that? We are all insecure. People feel we are inadequate, can't do the things that we are called to do. Just being in the presence of God, realizing that God loves you and you are loved by God, it has a way of just buttressing. You are God's child, don't worry, don't getressing. You're God's child, don't worry, don't get upset. You're God's child. He's going to lead you. So to me, the greatest value of the time spent with God is buttressing my security, and insecurity is, I believe, one of the biggest causes for burnout is, I believe, one of the biggest causes for burnout. People work and work and work and work and try to fulfill their inadequacy through hard work, through success, which is a sure way of destroying our joy and our energy.

Brian Stiller:

So we're insecure. At the core of insecurity is that we are trusting in ourselves rather than God. Yeah, is that I would say so.

Ajith Fernando:

Yeah, and we are trusting in ourselves and we have to be honest ourselves we are inadequate. So we have to find something that overcomes our inadequacy and that something is God's enabling overcomes our inadequacy and that something is God's enabling how have you in a practical sense taken time daily in devotional life.

Ajith Fernando:

Tell me how it works for you. In the morning I spend time. I'm a late bird, you know. I'm up till late in the night working usually, and then I get up late. I don't take any assignments till about 10 30 in the morning. I start by singing a hymn. I love music, like you, I love music, and so I sing a hymn to remind myself of the realities that govern my life, and then I just go and I'm praying for people.

Ajith Fernando:

I have a long, huge prayer list and I spend praying for people. I have a long, huge prayer list and I spend maybe an hour or sometimes more just going from name to name to name to name to name. I mean it's not an exciting, highly exciting thing, but all the time there is this sense I have been with God, god has listened to me. And then I read the Bible Again. You know, sometimes when I read the Bible it's exciting and I get some inspirational thoughts that are tremendously uplifting. Other times it's just. I mean recently I was finishing Chronicles and I was so grateful when the book was over, but after reading that I come out unconsciously. This is God's word. I have spent time in the thing that is my authority for life. So this is what I mean by buttressing one's security by being in the presence of God.

Brian Stiller:

But leaders are to get something done, aren't they? If you're leading a ministry or church, it isn't just getting up in the morning and having a good devotional life or having a retreat. Yeah, it's getting something done. And I take this from your text. I quote realizing the nature of the gospel gives the minister of the word a sense of compulsion. We realize that this is God's message to fallen humanity, hence the seriousness of our task. Paul expressed this compulsion when he said necessity is laid upon me. So, as a leader, you've led Youth for Christ and you have written on leadership. You speak on leadership. How do you, as a kind of a quiet, thoughtfully spoken leader me, I'm more of a rambunctious type A, but how do you express that compulsive nature of the gospel and the mandate as a leader?

Ajith Fernando:

Well, I think when you realize that God has called you, there's so much need in the world, it has a way of compelling you. You know, paul says the love of Christ constrains us, leaves us with no choice, that is, applies pressure. So time spent with god fills you with love that cries out for release. And there is so much need in the world. Now. The problem is, which need are we going to address? Because there is so much need.

Ajith Fernando:

So I think this sense of compulsion you know, I'm very sad that people are afraid of intensity today. They're afraid of urgency, passion, because they've seen so many people burnt out. You know that's very sad. I think our compulsion comes from our nearness to God. And when we are near to God we run back to God to get our strength, we depend on him and our failures are not crippling because, however much we fail, god is there with us and we can go to him and cry out to him, lament, scold him, scold the situation that we are in, but all of it is done in the presence of God. And so it's not this lone battle to be a great person, this drivenness, rather it is a response to a call.

Brian Stiller:

You have lived in the midst of difficulty wars, ecological disaster, the tsunami but also you have been a minority religion in your country. How can you move with integrity as a Christian but also care for your wider society and still declare that Jesus is the only way to the Father? How can the uniqueness of Christ be in your message and you to live in that kind of society? How do you go about that?

Ajith Fernando:

I think a key here is realizing that we are following a servant, lord as a servant. He moved among people with humility and with concern. As Lord, he presented a gospel that was unique and absolutely unique. Now we have to learn to mix these two together. So I really believe that we are going to make an impact upon our nation if we are people of love. We must be known as people who refuse to take revenge, who, when there's a need, are the first ones to help, who are the best neighbors you can find, who care for our neighbors and who are always ready to help. In a situation like that, stop and walk. You know, because I'm so busy in ministry, I don't have much time to spend with non-Christians, so I have to proactively make it an aspect of my life. So when I go for my walk, I walk in my neighborhood Just so that I can chat to the neighbors, you know, and help in things like that. So I think we have to be a servant, known as a servant presence in our nation.

Ajith Fernando:

Servanthood can apply itself in different ways, not only in helping In carefully thought through statements on issue facing the nation. You know we are servants, we have studied this issue and we have carefully thought through what we can do. For example, when we had a revolution in the country, they asked the youth movements why are the people revolting? This was not the war, this was a different thing. Why are the people revolting? This was not the war, this was a different thing. And we as a movement got together. I called our staff together, we spent a day brainstorming why are the people revolting? And we sent to the government a statement and some people thought it was helpful. They must know us as servants who help the people. Then there is this idea that there is also the sharing of the gospel. I must say it's not easy, but we have to look for ways in which we can proclaim the gospel.

Brian Stiller:

Ajith, in our evangelical world we're very competitive, so you have many denominations, many agencies, many NGOs, but you write this in looking in examining a Jesus-driven ministry. In Mark, you write disunity is one of Satan's greatest strategies against the church and sometimes this problem results from his direct attack against the church. And sometimes this problem results from his direct attack. You continue leaders need to be alert and do all they can to overcome such attacks through prayer, through talking with hurt parties and through any other means. So you're putting your finger on something that plagues many of us. How have you found in your own ministry and in your own country, found in your own ministry and in your own country, how to go about facilitating or generating unity?

Ajith Fernando:

Within the movement that I have led. I led Youth for Christ for 35 years and I would say the most absorbing, most intense, concentration requiring task that I had was keeping the team together, because when people work together, they are also young people. They are, you know, young people are fiery. Keeping the team together was the most challenging task that I had and that we must be proactive. Look to do that properly. I think we cop out when there's a problem, what to do? They can't get together, so let them.

Ajith Fernando:

And that's why I mean the number of organizations, the churches in our country is a scandal, because not because we don't, we need new churches, but we don't need churches to be dividing, dividing, dividing, you know, because they have problems. One day they are hugging each other and praising God. Next day they have gone, gone somewhere else, because they haven't committed themselves to the task, to the hard task of solving problems. Now that's on a local level, on a national level. I think a key is friendship. We need to adopt approaches whereby leaders can be friends with each other and share and pray. So I think that's another thing you know.

Brian Stiller:

In ministry, risk is an element. How do you both embody?

Ajith Fernando:

and manifest faith in your own leadership role. I take very few risks. That's my nature, yes, but I'm a leader of a group that takes a lot of risks. That's my nature, yes, but I'm a leader of a group that takes a lot of risk. So I had to learn to accept the risks that my colleagues were taking and back them and give them the space to do it. So I would say that the key is prayer, together, debate, argument and all of that until you're willing to say this is what we have to do. And even though I personally would not prefer to do that, because God's person in my group has this strong vision, I choose to back it and support it. But I think it comes out of prayer, of discussing.

Ajith Fernando:

I have found that, you know, when I was leader, I'm not gifted with a lot of practical wisdom and when I was a leader, I think about 60, 70% of the proposals I gave to our staff they rejected, but almost always they came up with something that modified and greatly improved my proposal. So I think risk is very good, but Christianity is a body religion. Risk must be taken as a community and then, once the community has battled through this thing, when the problems come. They don't discourage the initiator of the risk-taking undertaking, but rather they come behind that person and help that person to fulfill this dream that he or she has come up with.

Brian Stiller:

Not only in your life but in your writing and theology, you have looked at what it means to lead as a follower of Christ and as a leader of ministry or a pastor. Now, as we look back, what would be the important lessons that you have learned, that you would pass on to me, as an aspiring younger leader, or one who is in the middle of my life and given responsibilities to?

Ajith Fernando:

lead. Let me say what I think is the biggest mistake I have made. When I saw something that concerned me, I didn't address it. I thought let it pass. Very often it's the unpleasantness of addressing difficult issues that kept me from this, and I have seen a lot of damage coming as a result of that. So I this is something it may be in the life of a person, in the direction that a division is taking things, that decisions that they are making. So I would say, if you see a problem, address it at once. Be careful. Of course, sometimes, in order to encourage a enthusiastic person, we may be slow in the way we redress it because we don't want to discourage an enthusiastic person, but at the same time, when there there are concerns, we need to address them. I didn't very often and suffered as a result.

Brian Stiller:

What would be the top two principles or elements of leadership that you learned to be essential to encourage a younger leader today?

Ajith Fernando:

You know, midterm in my ministry as a leader, as leader of youth for christ ceo of a bank, he told me you know, the sense of leadership is keeping the team together. And I would say that is the leader's great task keep the team together, make sure that you're close to the team, make sure that you can trust them and if you can't trust them, work until you come to a position of being able to trust them. So I would say a key, the key to leading a group of people, is to keep the team together.

Brian Stiller:

And you as a leader? What is the most essential thing in your life?

Ajith Fernando:

In my life, I would say it would be keeping short accounts with God. I often fail. I spend too much time on the internet. Sometimes I will scold somebody when I shouldn't Things like that, and I don't want to go through life with the burden of these things that I have done wrong. So I would like to confess to God, or confess to my wife. I have an accountability team that I confess to if I have done wrong, so that you don't live with the burden of unsettled issues. That's one thing and it's the same with you know. If you have hurt somebody, you know and there's a broken relationship to deal with that. Because you don't have to go through leadership the journey as a leader with unnecessary baggage baggage that can be handled and completed.

Brian Stiller:

I think that we have to work with and your lessons from Mark about watching the life of Jesus. What captivated you about your study of him?

Ajith Fernando:

your study of him. One thing that I in my study of jesus as was to see how 29 times I found. There may be more, but I found 29 times in the gospels where we are asked to follow the example of jesus. Six of those times are general. Agree, like follow me as I follow christ, forgive as he forgives. 23 times of the 29 times we are asked to follow jesus it is to ask to follow him as a servant and in suffering, mainly in suffering and as a servant. So one of the things that encourages me about Jesus is Jesus was a happy sufferer. You know, just before he died he says I have told you these things, that my joy may be in you and that your joy will be full. And so I have to learn to live with frustration, with suffering, and know what it is to be happy in the midst of it.

Brian Stiller:

Ajith, so wonderful to have you with us. I love your writings, love to hear from you. I have for years watched your ministry and as colleagues we've engaged in things together and you are such an inspiration to us all. Thank you for being with us and God continue to give you years of ongoing ministry in your scholarship and your writing and your teaching. Thanks again.

Ajith Fernando:

Thank you, Brian. It's good to be with you always. Thank you.

Brian Stiller:

Thanks so much, Ajith, for joining me today on Evangelical 360. If you've missed part one of my conversation with Ajit Fernando, just go to evangelical360.com.