evangelical 360°
A timely and relevant new podcast that dives into the contemporary issues which are impacting Christian life and witness around the world. Guests include leaders, writers, and influencers, all exploring faith from different perspectives and persuasions. Inviting lively discussion and asking tough questions, evangelical 360° is hosted by Brian Stiller, Global Ambassador for the World Evangelical Alliance. Our hope is that each person listening will come away informed, encouraged, challenged and inspired!
evangelical 360°
Ep. 38 / God Never Loses a Generation: Insights in Finishing the Task ► Lisa Pak
What happens when heritage, calling and global vision converge in one leader's life? Dr. Lisa Pak's story offers a compelling answer.
Born in Toronto to Korean immigrant parents, Lisa's journey defies conventional paths. Though academically driven toward medicine, a teenage encounter with Ecclesiastes sparked an existential question that redirected her life: "What lasts longer than the body? The soul." This realization set her on an unexpected path to ministry—one that would eventually lead her around the world.
Her perspective on Korean Christianity provides fascinating insights into one of modern history's most remarkable church growth stories. The prayer-driven fervor that transformed Korea from a devastated post-war nation to the world's second-largest missionary-sending country reveals something profound about faith born of desperation. "I believe it was out of those seeds sown by foreign missionaries who literally gave their lives," Lisa explains, noting how those buried in Korean soil never witnessed the fruit their sacrifice would yield.
Now leading Finishing the Task alongside Pastor Rick Warren, Lisa works to unite churches globally around the Great Commission. Using 2033—marking 2,000 years since Christ's ministry—as what she calls an "Ebenezer moment," this initiative fosters collaboration across denominational and cultural lines. "I believe the Great Commission was designed to be done by a unified body of Christ," she states, suggesting that division itself may be our greatest obstacle to fulfilling Jesus' command.
Perhaps most compelling is Lisa's candid reflection on being a woman in leadership. The journey from never imagining ordination to her current global role, involved both personal wrestling and the intervention of unexpected allies—men who broke glass ceilings she couldn't break herself. "For women who feel called to lead, it's not just a struggle of calling, it's an existential struggle," she explains, offering hope to those navigating similar paths.
As global Christianity's center shifts toward younger nations in the Global South, Lisa remains unwaveringly optimistic: "I believe in a God who has never lost a generation and He will not start now." Her story reminds us that faith transcends cultural boundaries, generational divisions, and traditional limitations when anchored in timeless biblical narratives.
You can learn more about Finishing the Task through their website, Facebook and Instagram.
And you can share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online!
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Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360. I'm your host, brian Stiller, and I'm pleased to share with you another conversation with leaders, changemakers and influencers those impacting Christian life around the world. We'd love for you to be a part of the podcast by sharing this episode. Use hashtag Evangelical360, and join the conversation on YouTube in the comments below. My guest today is Reverend Dr Lisa Pak, a second-generation Korean-Canadian who has studied in both the US and Canada, has pastored across Asia and North America and is now a catalyst for church growth and mission all around the world.
Brian Stiller:Speaking with Lisa is an important reminder that the baton of leadership must always be passed to the next generation. She currently leads a global initiative called Finishing the Task, which is a network of people and churches focused on mission and reaching the world with the message of Jesus Christ. In our conversation, you'll hear the year 2033 come up from time to time. This is a simple reminder that Jesus of Nazareth lived and died 2,000 years ago, in 33 AD, which makes 2033 a meaningful millennial marker, a reminder that he is here among us and will return. Join me as Reverend Dr Lisa Pak inspires us with this message and the work of the global church. And the work of the global church. Lisa, thanks so much for joining us today on Evangelical 360.
Lisa Pak:Thank you for having me, Truly thank you for having me.
Brian Stiller:Lisa, you were not born in Korea, but you were born in Canada.
Lisa Pak:Yes, toronto, canada, born and raised yep.
Brian Stiller:But you have close linkage to your Korean community.
Lisa Pak:I do, in the first place because we're an immigrant family and our grandparents from Korea came to live with us, so our home culture is very Korean in some sense. Having said that, we are an immigrant family, so it's a little bit diluted because of the distance from the geographical distance from the culture. But I grew up 100%. I am Canadian through and through and when the opportunity came for me to go back to Korea for ministry it was hard. I did not want to go. I didn't feel a personal affinity to my people group and my heritage and my culture. I was like no, I'm Canadian.
Brian Stiller:Your life began here in Canada. You trained for ministry. Was this part of your family heritage?
Lisa Pak:It wasn't. In fact, both my parents, after I got older and you get to understand the rhythms of life and your parents are human beings and not just mom and dad we started talking about how challenging immigrant life was for them and, as young adults who came and got married here, how their faith was stretched when they started having a family and they grew faster and deeper because of the challenges of immigrant life. So they admittedly say that they were probably younger Christians when they first immigrated here to get married.
Brian Stiller:And so were you a person of faith, young in life.
Lisa Pak:Yes, because that's one thing I do 100% credit my parents for. Because that's one thing I do 100% credit my parents for, even as they were growing deeper in their faith, they had made a commitment to themselves, to each other, to the family, to God. We will raise our kids in the church in the faith, teaching them to pray. I remember my mom, in terms of teaching us how to tithe, saying back then, when we had change, when we were kids, 10% of whatever allowance we got. I remember her saying don't give change from your pockets, not because change is a moral, immoral thing, but she wanted to show and teach us to think ahead about what you give. So don't just pull it out of your pocket on Sunday and say, oh, I've got to give it. You go to the bank, get clean bills and then you give it.
Lisa Pak:So these things that my parents taught us when we were young it was in a Christian home and I don't remember not ever believing in God. And then I do remember the moments where it gradually became very personal. So childhood conversion, as the Reverend Billy Graham would say, it is my experience. It wasn't one hard moment. I always I look back and I'm so grateful to my parents. For that I mean certainly hard moments in life and in immigrant life, but that one thing I definitely owe to my parents.
Brian Stiller:But you ended up as a pastor. How did that happen?
Lisa Pak:So I'm a good Asian kid, brian. I was like I'm going to get into med school and I loved it. I'm academically wired, not necessarily because my ethnicity, it's just the way that God created me. I was automatically the Asian kid that said, not because my parents pressured me, but I was like I need to get the A plus. And I remember my mom actually saying you know, it's okay to get a B, which is not the traditional or the stereotypical way that Asian parents approach their kids. But I was very academically driven. I wanted to get into medicine and at that time I was reading.
Lisa Pak:I was thinking I think I was like 13. I was reading Ecclesiastes. And then, you know, with the limited experience and lens of a 13 year old, I'm like everything is meaningless. You know all everything. Everyone's ends up dying, like what is the point of all this? And I remember thinking my best friend's mom at the time had gotten cancer. So I'm like, oh, I'll just discover the cure for cancer, as ambitious as 13 year olds can get. And then, because I was reading through Ecclesiastes, I went through this mental process where it's like, but if I find a cure for cancer, people are going to die anyway. And then. So what lasts longer than the body, it's the soul. And somehow that clicked and I was like I'm going to do something in ministry.
Lisa Pak:When I was 16, I did tell my parents because my mom had asked my mom. Apparently this is her side of the story she didn't cry in front of me when I was 16, but she did cry and it was because she was like being a female pastor in a Korean church, because that's where I grew up and that was all I knew. It was so hard and she's like she cried. She called my grandmother her mom and my grandmother was crying and my mom's story goes she was crying louder than me. So I was like, why are you crying? And apparently she was crying because she was so happy.
Brian Stiller:Oh, and yet your mother was fearful here.
Brian Stiller:my daughter is going to be a woman in a Korean church and they're going to put her down because she's female,
Lisa Pak:yeah, and all the other obstacles that I couldn't even imagine, right, just all the subtleties of that. But my grandmother had wanted my mom or her younger sister. She's only got two kids, my aunt and my mom. She wanted my mom, who's the older sister, to go to seminary. My mom said no way. Like in that day and age, especially in Korea, the women just went to seminary to become pastor's wives. And she's like I'm not living that life and I 100% understand it. So when my grandmother heard that I, out of my own volition, was like I want to get into ministry, she took that as an answer to years and years of prayer. And I never knew this until I graduated, or close to graduated, seminary because my parents didn't want to put that spiritual layer of pressure on me. It was my own choice in that sense, but looking back I can certainly see God's hand in this.
Brian Stiller:Okay, let's go back to Korea.
Brian Stiller:South Korea.
Brian Stiller:A fascinating country, one that out of the Second World War emerged as one of the most dynamic Christian churches in the world Complex, feisty, combative, and yet in the world today, at least within the evangelical mission community, south Korea is only second to the US for missionary sending. So let's circulate back to why did the gospel take such root and accelerate in those few decades, in the last half of the 20th century?
Lisa Pak:Wow, yeah, that's such a rich question because, being born and raised in Canada in a grant, you know a diaspora Korean church but one doesn't learn mission history in your Sunday school class. One doesn't learn mission history in your Sunday school class. So it took me to go back to Korea and trace a lot of that lineage and even in seminary church history focused on a lot of Western church history. I did not know much about the East and there are a couple of reasons that come to the top of my mind. One is that, yes, the Korean people did respond, but they responded out of such desperation that the war and Japanese colonization before that created almost this vacuum of hope and such desperation. Stories about how compassion and world vision came out of the orphans that came out of the war, my mom being born in December 1953, like a few months after the ceasefire, like there was nothing ceasefire, like there was nothing. If I look at pictures of when my just a handful of when my grandparents were young adults, not even when they were kids, my dad's pictures, my mom's it's like a different world. I couldn't even imagine being born and raised there. So I imagine that just the context into which Korea was coming out of with all that turmoil, all that political instability, the poverty, the broken families, literally generational trauma, from, again, pre-japanese colonization to Japanese colonization, to post-war, post-ceasefire Korea. I think there was a lot that the nation had just in desperation, was like we'll take whatever it is that can help. And there were great missionaries.
Lisa Pak:I think this is the other piece. When you go to Korea I didn't know about this until I visited there Some of the Korean pastors from Unri Church, which is where I was serving. They took us out to us English second gen English speaking pastors out to the cemetery of foreign missionaries. And it moves you deeply because I feel like the blessings that Korea was able to reap and receive came from those outside of our people group who just in obedience to God, went, literally gave their lives, are buried in that cemetery and though their eyes could not see where Korea has gone, I believe that it was out of those seeds that were sown and then the external circumstances that God creates in his sovereignty that kind of really lined up so that the Korean people, the gospel seeds, were sown, the soil was cultivated and God caused it to grow. That's how I have begun to understand that deep legacy and the kindness of God.
Brian Stiller:When you look at Korea in the 20th century, you have these large mega churches, for example the Full Gospel Church in Seoul, pastor Younggi Cho, 800,000 members, or some unaccountable number, yeah astronomical, it's hard to even imagine. So what was there in that world that gave allowance for these huge churches? How did that come about?
Lisa Pak:It's such an interesting phenomenon too, and there's probably somebody else that has done the academic research behind it. But I almost feel like Korea being such a communal culture, you know, family oriented, community oriented, I think that when the gospel started to take seed and people were hungry for it and they just gather. The other thing about Korea, as opposed to Canada, it is a peninsula. You don't have much to go. You're not going to go north because of the 38th parallel. You're not going to go out to the sea and gather where. So it's almost like the geographical borders, like where else are they going to go except to congregate in these big areas? Most of the, a lot of them, are in Seoul, because it's the big city and just the landmass and geography, like you've got to gather somewhere.
Lisa Pak:Canada's got this huge landmass that we can literally spread out. So I think a little bit of that has to do with it. But I think it is mostly the communal undertones of our culture that let's gather together. We love gathering together, we love eating together, morning prayer. There's power in numbers. It is the tie that binds, and when it's saturated and undergirded by the vision that God can only give to his people, I think there was such a kindness and a mercy and a gift there that God gave to the Korean church.
Brian Stiller:Remarkable was the early morning prayer, 5 am prayers at the mountain or someplace, and this would congregate thousands of people on a daily basis.
Lisa Pak:Yep yep, there are many things that can be challenging about a traditional Korean culture. That one thing. If there was one thing and there's many things I love about the Korean culture that one thing about the Korean church. I'm like we dare not give up ever. I do feel like it was born out of a certain moment in history in the Korean church.
Lisa Pak:But to remember that and to go to God in prayer, my parents did that even in Toronto. They would wake up at like 4, 4.30, go to morning prayer at 5, 5.30, go to work On Wednesday nights. They would have small group Friday nights. We would go to church Saturdays, there would be events and it was just constant and they were able to continue to do it because I think there was a strength in that, there was purpose in that prayer and I don't doubt for a second. It's because of that prayer that the Korean church has become what it has, with the missionary focus, with the focus on the world, and the lack of prayer is going to disempower the church and the individual Christian. You can't get away from prayer.
Brian Stiller:But as I travel about in various countries I was thinking of Mongolia and Kazakhstan and China and other places that I've been to front and center are Chinese-led or Korean-led churches. So the missionary activity of the Southern Korean community is historic. No other country of that size has done and is doing what it is doing in missions. What is there about the spirit or the society that drives them to be these world evangelists?
Lisa Pak:I think it was a demonstration of foreigners, because they were foreigners, all the missionaries that brought the gospel and the debt of grace that is very deep-seated. And then I think it was just this compulsion from the inside, the love of Christ, that compels us to go. I can speak very specifically to the pastors in the Korean community that I served under Ha Young-jo Mok-sanim, reverend Lim Im, hyun-soo Mok-sa-nim in Mississauga, Toronto, and a few others. They were all mentored and discipled by Campus Crusade for Christ, which has that very deep. We got to go evangelize the world and there was a generation of pastors in that demographic that were nourished and discipled with that kind of vision and it trickled down to many of the megachurches that they ended up founding and leading. So I think that that definitely has something to do with it, like the vision that was passed on from these missionaries that again literally gave up their life. There's something about that continuity that God honors, not necessarily from one people group and within that, but certainly in his kingdom. Not necessarily from one people group and within that, but certainly in his kingdom.
Lisa Pak:I have learned, brian, god's kingdom unfolds like no other empire, no other kingdom on this earth, and when I look back at the heritage of the Korean Christian faith. There was a lot of grace. Where God, I can see his sovereign hand. The further you go back in history, a little bit clearer it is, and I'm not sure exactly where the Lord is headed today. But I do know that if we continue in obedience his word does not come empty. So I do feel like there's a lot of intertwining and if you were to press me for a hard and fast, research-based answer I would have to go back to. It is by the grace of God. Why us, why not the Japanese? Why not other South Asia? Why not Canada? Why this tiny country, this peninsula country that came out of post-war and part of me thinks because God will not share his glory with anybody and the only way that a tiny country is able to do what it does in the mission world is because God allows it and God empowers it. That's it.
Brian Stiller:Okay, here you are. Today. You're a global strategist for finishing the task. An interesting line working with Rick Warren. Yes, Give us an overlay of what that's about.
Lisa Pak:Oh man, First, do you know, working with Pastor Rick Warren has been amazing. He's a very particular style of leader for a particular generation.
Brian Stiller:He. He was pastor of Saddleback.
Brian Stiller:Church in California.
Lisa Pak:Yes.
Brian Stiller:Writer of a purpose-driven major book that had enormous sales.
Lisa Pak:Yeah, which was translated into Korean. And the irony or not the irony, the great thing about this whole story is that my parents read Pastor Rick's book for 40 days and the church had tied it to 40 days of prayer, even before I knew of Pastor Rick, because I was just a kid growing up and they had, with church leaders, gone to visit Saddleback because in that season of our church history we were thinking about building a building, the one that is there right near Pearson Airport, and they had gone to tour many of the megachurch buildings just so they can get an idea of you know how to make a functional building that is for the rising generations. And Salavak was one of the churches that they visited. So when I joined Pastor Rick Warren with finishing the task, I think it was like a moment. It just tickled my parents to know that who could have scripted this the way that the Lord has?
Lisa Pak:So yes, and so finishing the task is wholly about the Great Commission, bringing unity into the body of Christ and mobilizing the church for the sake of the Great Commission. So it aligns with my experience in the Korean church, my love for the church, I believe in the church, I believe that the Great Commission was given to the church. It is our responsibility and privilege, and that's where Pastor Rick's heart is. How do we mobilize the church for the Great Commission? And so that's where I feel very blessed and privileged to work on the team and just serve under his leadership.
Brian Stiller:So the idea of finishing the task is built around the year 2033.
Lisa Pak:Yes.
Brian Stiller:Yes, that's obviously the 2, 2000 years since the life of Christ on this earth. So is that a kind of a magical year. Does 2000 years matter, or is it a kind of a promo idea?
Lisa Pak:I need to make this clear, and I'll look right at the camera it is not an eschatological date that we proclaim that Jesus will.
Brian Stiller:Eschatological meaning.
Lisa Pak:That the end days, like when that happens, like Jesus is coming, we've got to finish everything before he comes.
Brian Stiller:So that's not behind the finishing task, not for us.
Lisa Pak:Not for us. And I think I've heard Pastor Rick explain it very clearly in an academic analogy which kind of like oh, I get it now. If there's no due date for an assignment, it's kind of like the students will never get it done because there's no urgency and there's no marking point. I've got students who will get it done before and I've got students who need extensions. That's all particular cases, but there is a general due date.
Lisa Pak:But what I love about 2033 and I've come to love even more, is that number one. There's other big movements that are coming around this. Billy Wilson in Empower 21 is one of them. Our Catholic brothers and sisters from Global 2033 is one of them. So we're kind of circulating together around this date and it's significant, if only because then we can celebrate what the Lord has done in 2000 years. So, yes, the Lord commands us to celebrate in the Old Testament and there's a lot of celebrations throughout the Bible.
Lisa Pak:So why is it bad for us to use that as a marker to see what we can do in unity and collaboration for the sake of that celebration? And I got to tell you if the Lord Jesus comes in 2033, I've got no complaints. I really don't, and I don't pretend to know when he's going to come, but until that point, let us see how much we can do in our posturing towards collaboration, pooling our resources, praying into spiritual strategy and putting our shoulder to the plow. So for me it's just a chronological marker. And then maybe 2030, the rising generations at that point need to recalibrate to see where the next vision point is. I know Lausanne is 2050. We're not saying that Jesus will come on those two dates, but, my goodness, let's give ourselves a marker to work towards.
Brian Stiller:So it's a marker of celebration.
Lisa Pak:For me, yes, yes, absolutely it should be. Why not? Birth of the Church, 2000th anniversary of the Great Commission there's a lot to celebrate.
Brian Stiller:And a reminder that there is work yet to be done.
Lisa Pak:Yes, Do you know? Actually, in the last several months, I've been thinking a lot about Ebenezer moments in my personal life. Ebenezer moments meaning God is a stone of our help. And there was this moment in Israelite history where the prophet Samuel sets up a stone and says this is Ebenezer. Not Ebenezer Scrooge, but Ebenezer as a marker to show and to demonstrate to the Israelites, to remind them that God had been faithful thus far. Therefore, even in the face of the Philistines and other enemies, you can trust that he will be faithful until into the future days, and perhaps 2033 for the church is one of those marking moments that could be an Ebenezer moment for the global body of Christ. Everything leading up to that point because of God's faithfulness, because of his grace, because of the obedience of the saints that journey before us and with us, and then, from there on, the Lord will continue to be faithful until the day he returns.
Brian Stiller:But the pattern of witness of evangelism of conversion is different from region to region continent to continent, culture to culture. So here in North America we've seen a slippage of church attendance, for example, and of personal belief, although the latest stats show that that has normalized, it's not dropping like it was, it's staying at the same level. But as you look at the world under your, finishing the task that you are serving in, what are you seeing worldwide that either gives you concern or creates optimism.
Lisa Pak:Oh, wow, for me. I am always optimistic. There are challenges, to be sure, and one of my passions, brian, I know you and I have talked, but, for the sake of those who are listening in and watching, I love the rising generations. I know there's a lot of concern because of the fast-paced nature of the world we live in, the cultural conversations that generations previously have never had to ask ourselves. But part of me and my optimism, if you will, my hope for the future, is rooted in the fact that I know a God who has never lost a generation and he will not start now.
Lisa Pak:So, yes, the fight might get harder, but I do feel like every generation, all the living generations today, whether you're on the older end or the younger end, god has never left the body of Christ ill-equipped to do the work that he's asked it to do. He's not that kind of God. So there is always a way. There is always a way to share faith, there is always a way to reconfigure, there's always time to come back to the Lord. So when I look at the world, I think it really. I feel very blessed to have the opportunity to travel, because these stories that you hear from the Middle East, from the Far East, from Southeast Asia, from South Asia. There are pressure points against God's people, for sure, but in those are the testimonies that show us that God is a living God. He is the God who sees his daughters in South Asia. He is a God who is still alive, working miracles, coming, appearing to people in dreams, and so it compels him to go to the local church. Who is his Jesus? Many stories like that in the Middle East.
Lisa Pak:So for me, I am optimistic about the trajectory of Christianity, if you will, and I am also encouraged because many of the leaders Pastor Rick is one of them are so open to collaboration, unlike any other season of church history before.
Lisa Pak:It doesn't matter what denomination you are. We're happy to work with those who believe that Jesus is Lord, nation you are. We're happy to work with those who believe that Jesus is Lord, the virgin birth we love. There are so many, so much great work that our Catholic brothers and sisters are doing as well. So where are the points? And if I can quote from some theologians John Stott is one of them, who quoted this where it's? How can we approach each other with freedom in the non-essentials, unity in the essentials and charity or love in every other area, and I think that I am encouraged by leaders we mentioned Rob Hoskins as well, pastor Rick is one of them, billy Wilson, all these leaders who are willing to come together so that in this season we can collaborate unlike any other generation before us, but it seems in our evangelical Christian world that you and I are a part of that.
Brian Stiller:Competition drives. So much so I remember and being in South Korea and there are 150 Presbyterian denominations.
Lisa Pak:Yes, yeah.
Brian Stiller:So you have this enormous cleavage going on everywhere. How does collaboration speak into that disunity that is so manifest in our church?
Lisa Pak:Yes, Do you know? I think it depends on the kind of competition that we're talking about, because rivalry and the one-upmanship might not be helpful. But I remember in the New Testament when the disciples were like oh, they're casting demons out in your name. And Jesus says are they against you? And they're like, well, no. And he says, well, let them. Do you know. And Paul also says some people preach Christ out of ambition and their own motives, but at least Christ is preached. So there are nuances to both of those passages.
Lisa Pak:For me, I always find that healthy competitions helps us excel. It's like sports. One of the reasons why so many of our Canadian athletes might go down south is because the talent pool is greater and so they are forced to excel because they're just around people who compete at a different level and the programs are just structured differently. So for me, healthy competition in the church in that sense and I do have to nuance that very well, because competition often means that somebody wins and loses but this spurring on, if you will, this mutual spurring on that Paul uses that word as well right To spur each other on, to encourage each other on that, I think, helps us excel with each other and we just kind of pull other people along.
Lisa Pak:Let's do this together so that for me is a healthy collaborative environment. But when we start cutting people out and we want to show others that we are better than this organization, denomination, church or tradition, I think that is a seed of rivalry. And that is what the enemy does he divides and he conquers. He comes to kill, steal and destroy and that is a seed that divided in the Garden of Eden. If we go past God and Adam and husband and wife, brother and brother, cain and Abel, that was the seed that we should not buy into.
Brian Stiller:What would be the prime strategy of finishing the task as a global organization? How do you go about it?
Lisa Pak:Do you know? Pastor Rick once told me go out and build relationships. Because I think yes, for all the strategy in the world, if it's not undergirded by what Patrick Lencioni and his leadership books will call vulnerability-based trust and real authenticity, this understanding of brotherhood and sisterhood in Christ, I think you can sign all the MOUs, but it becomes a little bit wooden. There's a dynamic, relational dynamic to the body of Christ. Unity is not static. It's not. We're all in this event together and now we're all unified, and now we can go home in our separate ways and say that we're unified. It's not, it's a relationship and you have to upkeep it and Zoom in. This world helps Online platforms Skype or WhatsApp or Kakao Talk, whatever it is. It helps us connect. But to give it that deeper coloring, to walk with people in this journey, I think that it's important for us to undergird all of the work that we do with this love for one another, which is what God commands, the Great commandment love the Lord, your God, love others as you would love yourself, and then the great commission comes out of that. So part of me thinks that the Lord purposely designs the great commission so it cannot be completed unless we're unified. And then out of that unity and that's why Jesus prays in John 17, that they may be unified so the world might know that you sent me I think out of that unity will come the strategy, out of that unity and all the differences that might threaten to pull us apart.
Lisa Pak:But those are the very reasons that we need to cling to one another, even if we have to hash things out or have some hard conversations. But out of that I feel like the Spirit will reveal how we get this Great Commission thing done. I don't think that this and people will say it nobody's going to be able to do it alone. So how do we get unified? I think when we try to just do the strategy without the unity, I think we're putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. It's just not going to get done. My personal belief, from my understanding of the Bible, from missiology, is that the Great Commission was designed to be done by a unified body of Christ. How about the gender issue?
Brian Stiller:Yes, you're a woman in ministry, in leadership, in pastoral work. Has that been an advantage or how have you faced the headwinds of that?
Lisa Pak:If you were to ask me in my 20s if I thought it was an advantage, my answer would be no, because there were so many closed doors and assumptions made. Our culture is based on Confucian ideology and I grew up never seeing a female elder in my circle of Korean churches and a female pastor who would preach on Sundays. They were all children's pastors or taking care of the women's ministry and a lot of them were in the kitchen and it was just not what I wanted to do. That's why I assumed for myself when I felt the call to ministry, that it was an academic ministry aligned with what I loved, didn't see space for me, never even didn't have the imagination to picture that I would be allowed to get ordained. Or it was a space for me and, interestingly, it was in Korea that Hayoung Jo Mok's name, reverend Ha, asked me into his main office and said you need to get ordained, and it floored me because I just had never thought about it. And here was an older gentleman from a more what I perceive to be a more conservative culture and he said to me in Korean I am being conservative by telling you to get ordained. That made me go back to all the biblical passages that were used to interpret a certain way, and rethink that and go a little bit deeper, understand the different positions and do that head knowledge, investigation for myself, and then the heart conversations with the Lord.
Lisa Pak:So I think there are earthly disadvantages, systems and frameworks, and culture, which can be ethnic culture, it could be denominational culture, it could be family culture, but there are so many layers that women have to break through. And I remember sharing with Pastor Rick that for women who feel called to lead or to minister or to preach or to teach, it's not just a struggle of calling, it's an existential struggle, because if everything out there tells you that you're not allowed to do and yet you feel this burning fire, you're struggling with your very existence. And when you layer on top of that a theological framework that says you are sinning by even having these desires to go out and teach and preach, I think there's a lot of internal consternation that I think is such a burden for a lot of girls and women to bear.
Brian Stiller:But you broke through.
Lisa Pak:I broke through, but not out of my own strength. It was that gentleman. He was a door opener.
Lisa Pak:He was a door opener and this is the way I describe it. When you're on this side of a glass ceiling, I do not have the strength. I describe it. When you're on this side of a glass ceiling, I do not have the strength to break that. I do not have the connection. So I had people like Reverend Ha, like Reverend Hyun Soo Lim, like Pastor Rick, who would break that for me and pull me up. I still have great people like that. John Chestnut is one of them, bill Wolf, josh Newell, all men, of course, because they have a certain privilege and a certain position and authority, and they have all been so gracious, so I don't pretend to have gotten here on my own. It was a lot of Boaz's, if I can put it that way.
Brian Stiller:Boaz was.
Lisa Pak:Boaz was the patriarch, if you will, that took Ruth, a young woman who was a Moabitess, under his care and gave her favor and helped her integrate into the Israelite community and just was able to embrace her.
Lisa Pak:And so Ruth becomes the grandmother of the great King David, so great grandmother so that I don't pretend to have gotten here on my own, but there was a struggle, a lot of internal conversations with God.
Lisa Pak:But now and this is the other part I actually think it's an advantage, Because when I look at the story of Jesus, he is the great intercessor, the Savior, who understands all oppression and people who are looked down upon or disenfranchised or marginalized for whatever reason. I feel like the daughters of God who go through this have an avenue to have an experience where Jesus can come close to them. Because of their disenfranchised nature, because they are oppressed, because doors are closed. I feel like it helps us understand God's heart for those who are likewise. And for me, I'm like, if you never know how that feels, you can't replicate it, and this is the lot that God gave to us, and there's something so precious about it, and the Lord will be the lifter of your head. And so for me, I think it's an advantage. I think God has a very special heart for his daughters In finishing the task.
Brian Stiller:I know that you do these major conferences with pastors globally, many, many countries. To what degree is that activity penetrating the younger generation, and how is the younger generation responding to the gospel that you and I know? So?
Lisa Pak:well, let me start answering this way. I believe in a God who is a generational God. He presents himself as the God of Abraham, isaac and Jacob and he has never limited his kingdom plan to one life, even Joseph in Genesis 50,. As he's passing away, he kind of has understood the long plan of the Lord and he says when you know somebody comes to take you all out of Egypt because we're not supposed to be here, you take my bones out. And so for me, I understand a God who has built into his kingdom work generational continuity. And so that has been a focus of finishing the task, because Pastor Rick, being in this particular season of his ministry towards he's no longer 40, in other words right he has gone through that. He has retired from Saddleback, he's turned his attention to the globe, and so he's recognizing that there are generations that are coming afterwards, that will continue on when all of us go home. And isn't that the right way to do it, as the Lord Jesus Christ prepares his bride for his return. You're only young once, right, and I love that because you remind me of that, lisa, because I'm what, turning 44 soon, like you can't unlearn your 30s or your 20s, even right to your only young ones, and I look at them and there's such ambition. Why is that a bad thing? That they want to achieve something in life, that they want to do something that is, you know, greater than their forefathers and foremothers. I'm all like we need to continue to encourage and stoke that flame. Don't quench that spirit. But how do we channel it into a narrative that goes beyond their life as well? Right and so for finishing the task.
Lisa Pak:It's interesting because, for example, Korea's got a problem where there are less and less younger folk Africa. Their average age, I think the last time I checked for the country of Nigeria is like 15 or something. It's super young. South Asia is the same. The westernized or more civilized countries. We're old, like Canada's average age, I think, is over 40, which is a few decades away from the 15 that is Nigeria.
Lisa Pak:And so I feel like, when we look at where the UUPGs are the unreached, unengaged people groups, those people groups who have yet to hear for the first time, which is a focus of finishing the task and getting the gospel to the ends of the earth when you overlay the areas of where these people groups who have never heard the gospel before, they don't have a single verse translated into their languages and you overlay that with the areas that are the youngest. There is a overlap that, to me, is fascinating, wondering what the Lord is doing as he pushes the growth of the church to the global south, and so that is also a conversation that mission leaders and church leaders need to have, about discerning how the Lord is moving globally, because now we know I think 100 years ago we didn't have the technology so that we can know real time what the Lord is doing.
Brian Stiller:Now we do- Let me just clarify Global south is Africa, Latin America, Asia.
Lisa Pak:Yes, southeast Asia, asia, yes. So South Korea, though it is in Asia, japan, though it is in Asia, is not considered the Global South. They are established countries, if we can put it that way. And so when we see those data points, I think it takes people important conversations that world leaders need to have with each other so that the global body of Christ can reconfigure ourselves in such a way that optimizes the diversity of the globe, but also the generations that are coming up there after us. They are much more exposed to different cultures, they are much more open to different ideas. They are leaning towards being much more spiritual, but spiritual for what?
Lisa Pak:And so there are, I think, challenges on the horizon, but whoever said that the work of the Lord is easy? Whoever said that raising the generations that come thereafter is going to be easy? I look at Daniel, I look at Isaiah, I look at Esther. Daniel, I look at Isaiah, I look at Esther. These are pockets of excellent young people who are able to withstand the tumultuous circumstances of their day and age and to still obey. I feel like we have a generation who is capable of that.
Brian Stiller:I noticed that you use Old Testament, New Testament, but often Old Testament personalities as a way to configure your own understanding of what God is doing. Has that always been your kind of methodology of analysis or of expectation?
Lisa Pak:So before I went out to Korea to go into what I didn't know back then, but pastoral ministry, get ordained and go down that road, brian. I wanted to be like Indiana Jones. I studied Indiana Jones, archaeology and the Old Testament, discovering the Ark of the Covenant. I studied at Gordon Conwell's where I got my Master's of Divinity, but my first choice was a Master's of Biblical Languages because I wanted to go into study the archaeology of the ancient Near East.
Lisa Pak:I studied Ugaritic, sumerian, akkadian and I felt back then I was giving that up to go out to Korea to pursue what I did not want to pursue, and I remember being angry at God. I am not giving up my year at Harvard's Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations to go out to Korea to babysit kids. That was honestly my conversation with God. Looking back, there are far more brilliant people who are writing those commentaries, who are doing that studies, which is necessary for us to understand the Old Testament context, and I don't think I would have been as fulfilled as I was if I pursued that but those Old Testament characters become a launching pad for yourself.
Lisa Pak:Yes, because I have a natural affinity for history, I think and I love the narratives.
Brian Stiller:And how have those personalities, those characters, those stories help you implement your own sense of call?
Lisa Pak:I love the historical narratives because, for example, joseph he starts at 17 until the day he dies and there's a narrative arc in there and I know we don't know all the everyday pieces but there are these big data points and for me I'm like, if God is faithful in those moments of their life, surely he can be for mine. So it helps me draw these narratives and then it places them in this greater narrative. There's 400 years between the Old Testament and New and when Jesus comes. This has always been my understanding of the Word of God. I have come to understand the beauty, the grace, the depth of the New Testament because of my studies in the Old Like. I feel like it just gives it some real context. So, speaking of bible translation, where we were talking before the podcast started, I'm all for translating the gospels, I'm like, but you need to get the old testament translated as well, the full corpus of the word of god.
Brian Stiller:There's so much richness in there I remember the first time I heard first chronicles, 12, 32 quoted, and david chose sons of Issachar who had an understanding of the times and who knew what Israel ought to do. And when I heard that I knew that was my verse. Wow, it framed the way I thought. It gave me focus as to my ambition, yes, and it gave me a framework of what to do, yeah. So when I listened to you, I realized that God uses those Old Testament characters as a way to, as almost a launching plan for yourself in life or in various circumstances.
Lisa Pak:Yeah, and they're so human, so human, these Old Testament characters, right, and I think that is both a source of encouragement, but also let's not, if we can help ourselves and make the same mistakes they have but Lord knows, we all make our mistakes speaks to what we were just talking about a few moments ago, about women in ministry or women in leadership or women in life, where here's a young woman who's an orphan, who's a Jew, who's female. So these, in that day and age, in the Persian empire, in the ancient Near East, there are three things that are liabilities for her, and yet he uses a girl who's got these liabilities against her to turn to go around the power politics of all the men, and she is the Christ figure of that story. So that ought to be a moment of hope for all the girls out there who feel overlooked by the world. God does see you and he will use you for his kingdom purpose.
Brian Stiller:Lisa Pak, thank you for joining us on Evangelical 360.
Lisa Pak:Thank you so much for having me, Brian.
Brian Stiller:Thank you, lisa, for joining us today and for providing us with a renewed understanding of the Christian mission and the global church, and thank you for being a part of the podcast. Be sure to share this episode. Use hashtag Evangelical360, and join the conversation on YouTube in the notes below. If you'd like to learn more about today's guest, be sure to check the show notes for links and info, and if you haven't already received my free e-book and newsletter, just go to brianstillercom.
Brian Stiller:Thanks again, until next time, don't miss the next interview, be sure to subscribe to Evangelical 360 on YouTube.