evangelical 360°

Ep. 42 / Can Ancient Flames Ignite Modern Faith? ► Byron Klaus

• Host Brian Stiller • Season 1 • Episode 42

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Dr. Byron Klaus invites us into a fascinating exploration of Pentecostalism's remarkable journey from the margins to becoming the largest segment of global Protestantism. As former president of the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary and a respected Pentecostal scholar, Klaus brings both academic insight and personal experience to this conversation about a movement that has fundamentally reshaped Christianity worldwide.

We begin by tracing Pentecostalism's origins to the "theological winds" of the 19th century Holiness and Keswick movements, which created a hunger for deeper spiritual experience. These currents culminated in what Klaus calls "combustion points" - most famously at Azusa Street in 1906 Los Angeles, but also through numerous immigrant communities across North America. What made early Pentecostalism distinctive was its emergence among "the marginalized, the disenfranchised, people who lived at the edges of society," who found in Spirit-filled faith a source of hope and empowerment.

Dismissed by established churches, early Pentecostals formed separate communities centered on biblical authority and spiritual experience. Klaus candidly discusses both the movement's strengths and its "Achilles heel" - a tendency to follow charismatic personalities who become the movement's focal point. He also addresses contemporary challenges, particularly the political polarization affecting American churches, noting his own journey toward becoming "increasingly apolitical" as he recognizes that no political vision truly aligns with God's kingdom priorities.

The conversation turns global as Klaus explains why Pentecostalism became what Harvey Cox called "a religion made to travel" - a spiritual seed that could be planted in any culture and flourish through the Spirit's power. With his denomination counting just 3 million adherents in America but 80 million worldwide, Klaus speaks from firsthand observation about how Pentecostalism's adaptability has fueled Christianity's explosive growth across Africa, Asia, and Latin America.

For Western believers, Klaus suggests humility in learning from Global South Christians who demonstrate "the vibrancy of Christianity in the middle of suffering" - maintaining profound faith amid material lack, persecution, and uncertainty. His advice for future leaders emphasizes avoiding overconfidence, building cross-generational relationships, and developing strong theological foundations.

You can learn more from Byron Klaus through his website and published works. 

And don't forget to share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online! 

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Brian Stiller:

Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360. I'm your host, brian Stiller, and I'm pleased to share with you another conversation that I have with leaders, changemakers and influencers those who impact Christian life around the world. Makers and influencers those who impact Christian life around the world We'd love for you to be a part of the podcast by sharing this episode, use hashtag Evangelical360, and join the conversation on YouTube in the comments below. My guest today is the Rev Dr Byron Claus, a Pentecostal pastor, scholar, leader of international mission and former president of the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary in Springfield, missouri. For 16 years as seminary president, byron mentored and influenced the next generation of Pentecostal pastors and leaders. He's a widely respected voice in the Pentecostal movement and I'm so grateful that he's here today with us to talk about the history of that movement and the global impact this next generation will have. Byron Claus, so good to have you on Evangelical 360 today.

Byron Klaus:

Well, it's a wonderful opportunity to be with you, Brian .

Brian Stiller:

Well, it's a wonderful opportunity to be with you, Byron. We became friends as we were mutually responsible for seminaries you in Springfield, missouri, and me in Toronto and we became friends as we were managing these enterprises, which was a challenge at best. But in preparing for today, I had forgotten that I had written the foreword to your book. Here's what I wrote as a fellow Pentecostal from Canada, I long for someone within the American Pentecostal world to write honestly and prophetically about this world movement that began in the US. I say that you're a section on American spirituality. I say that you're a section on American spirituality.

Brian Stiller:

You don't let us get away with a smugness that rests on the past, notwithstanding the American church's community remarkable growth and influence. I said this about this book that you wrote. Instead, he calls us up short, pressing us to consider the depths of today's spirituality. Not driven by nostalgia, his heart yearns to ensure that the ongoing life of the church is rooted in Christ and his spirit. One thing I learned about you, byron, is that you have a candor that is surprising and a bit shocking at times, but so refreshing. And so today, as we talk about the Pentecostal movement globally, but so refreshing. And so today, as we talk about the Pentecostal movement globally, I have a real interest in hearing from you as we think about the past and the present and the future of this global movement that you and I have been a part of and have had responsibility and leadership. And so today, as we begin, I think it would be good to go back and refresh our minds as to what the Pentecostal movement is and how it emerged in the US and globally.

Brian Stiller:

Give us a thumbnail sketch of that

Byron Klaus:

beginning of the 20th century is something that has really its foundation in several movements that occur in the 19th century. I think the roots really come from John Wesley and in the 19th century you see both the holiness and Keswick movements developing and the thing that in a sense develops there is this desire for a deeper life with the Lord, that there is this desire to have a deeper life. The Keswick movement was a deeper life movement and what happens at that point is with the holiness movement, the Keswick movement, there's a movement towards a second experience, a subsequent experience to salvation, a desire to go deeper, to be more fervent, and those movements really are what I call theological winds and they are the fuel for combustion points that occur late 19th, early 20th century. So you have a world that is in flux. You have a world that is changing and the impact of the revolution is changing.

Byron Klaus:

There's a lot of immigration going on, particularly to North America, there's people coming from particularly Europe, and it all comes together and there are combustion points, and the major one that gets most of the story is the combustion point at Azusa Street in April 1906 in Los Angeles, while that is the most storied of these combustion points for all of this spiritual fervor that's going on.

Byron Klaus:

There are a lot of tributaries and as we move ourselves away like 125 years now from that period, we see that there are other little tributaries. And those little tributaries, you know, have to do, for instance, with the immigrant movements. Much of the story of early Pentecostalism is around immigrant movements in the US and in Canada and they're around Germans and Scandinavians and Polish and Romanians and Italians, and they have their own stories, as well as African-American and Black Canadians have their own stories. So I like to talk about the fuel, which is largely the Holiness Movement, the Keswick Movement, and then combustion points that probably have to do more with God's sovereignty. That just sort of sparks all of the things that are happening during that period of time, sparks all of the things that are happening during that period of time. So that's sort of the background of the immersion of the Pentecostal movement as we know it today.

Brian Stiller:

And what were the factors in America that were particularly important in shaping or in giving direction to the Pentecostal movement in the US?

Byron Klaus:

Well, you know, I think it would certainly those the Keswick movement, this deeper life movement, the holiness movement, which was focused on sanctification and dynamic moments in people's lives. This isn't just sort of you ooze into this experience. There are flashpoints, you have these crisis moments, and I think that the place that this emerges is among what we might call the marginalized, the disenfranchised, the people who lived at the edges of society. The people who were initially impacted by this were people who had been left by the wayside of the road and they had no place else to go, and they found in this encounter with God a clarification in their relationship with Jesus Christ, an empowerment to, in a sense, give them hope in the middle of their hopelessness.

Brian Stiller:

That really is a key factor in how it emerged in North America and, you know, in my case here in the United States know, in my case here in the United States that happened within the larger context of Protestantism, where you have Wesleyanism or Methodism and you have other mainline churches that were going through its own theological shift within the 20th century, and did that generate a kind of a fundamentalism in the Pentecostal movement? Or how did they respond to this, to the shifting of the old line Protestant churches?

Byron Klaus:

Because their experience, you know this is Jim Crow era and so the experience of Pentecostals was viewed through this racial lens. Okay, so the emotionalism, the emotion, you know, the sheer emotion of Pentecostalism was met by what we might call the established church as being. The LA Times called it Negroisms. Okay, it was dismissed as simply an expression of quote, unquote Negro religion. And so, as a whole, the Pentecostal movement, whether it was black or white or whatever it was, was dismissed largely by the established church at that particular time. So anytime you are dismissed as an aborition by an established group, are dismissed as an aberration by an established group, you sort of rally the troops around yourselves and you in a sense become your own enemy. You got to gain identity from something and they sort of separated themselves from the influence of the larger established church and sort of became an enclave of their own. They were pretty isolated.

Brian Stiller:

And how did they respond to the growing theological liberalism of the old line churches?

Byron Klaus:

Yeah, they were definitely on the side of the authority of Scripture and what we might at that time call the fundamentalist side. I mean they were people of the word. There was no doubt about the authority of Scripture. You know, there was no doubt about the authority of Scripture. You know. For me, though, those things weren't conceptual battles. For example, growing up in a Pentecostal church back in the mid-20th century, I remember my father. Before he would preach every sermon, we would sing a song, and the song would say the Bible stands, though the hills may tumble, it will firmly stand. When the earth shall crumble, I will plant my feet on its firm foundation, for the Bible stands, though the hills may tumble, it will firmly stand. When the earth shall crumble, I will plant my feet on its firm foundation, for the Bible stands.

Byron Klaus:

So that isn't theological jargon, but that is in a sense a stance that the Bible is authoritative, it speaks to our lives today,

Brian Stiller:

and that particular stance almost raised it. In my experience. It raised it above this debate between conservatism and liberalism. It was almost within our church. That was a non-issue.

Byron Klaus:

Non-issue, non issue. The authority of Scripture was. You know, you believed it. It spoke to your life. It spoke to you in the middle of your life. The narratives of Scripture spoke to you. You identified with the people in Scripture the challenges they faced. You faced too, and that was its authority.

Brian Stiller:

But it seems that there was a an important influence within, I guess, every religious movement, but within the Pentecostals personalities that rose to the surface. So I think of Amy Semple McPherson. She was a Canadian who went down there, started out as a Salvation Army lass and emerged as this major voice within America. What other kind of voices were important to the development of the Pentecostals in the US?

Byron Klaus:

I think as a general rule, pentecostals have always been attracted to strong voices. We can call them pioneers, we can call them entrepreneurs, we can call them early adopters, but there's always been strong voices okay, strong voices that have typified and been responded to in the Pentecostal movement. That is true across the board and you know, obviously I think Amy Semple McPherson is an example of a voice that had broad appeal across North America and certainly in the United States. I don't think that there's really a person that might be typified as strong as Amy Semple McPherson that emerged, but there were always strong voices and pioneering prophetic voices that people responded to. Why? Because they saw them as sent from God and people who spoke to their needs in their particular situation.

Brian Stiller:

But you do have this bifurcation within the evangelical world. You have your standard evangelical community and then the Pentecostals, and we were seen as evangelical outliers. How did that message of the Spirit become more ubiquitous, influencing those churches that initially would reject the essential Pentecostal message?

Byron Klaus:

Well, you know, I think that's a long story that is certainly still playing itself out today.

Byron Klaus:

And you know, I think that back in the mid-40s in the United States, when mid-1940s, when the National Association of Evangelicals sort of emerged, in that the Sempsons of God was there right at the beginning and we had strong through the mid-20thth century, strong presence in the National Association of Evangelicals at some point I don't know if it's true today, but we were the largest constituent group in the National Association of Evangelicals and while that, on the official sort of the officialness of things, we were part of that movement, there was there, always has been, this tension between the enthusiasm of Pentecostals, particularly around spiritual gifts, healing manifestations, that has kept us being viewed as sort of the crazy cousin in the family and that's still present.

Byron Klaus:

But I think as we move into the latter part of the 20th century and we get into the charismatic movement and then we get into the third wave of this awakening that occurred at the beginning of the century, we see a much more oozing of our themes into the larger spheres of evangelicalism. So it's been a long process. I think the tensions are still there and I can, even as an old guy, I can walk into a room of evangelicals and identify myself as Pentecostal and people sort of raise their eyebrows and wonder can this guy actually read and has he got any degrees? I mean, can this guy actually read and you know, has he got any degrees? I mean, that still is present.

Brian Stiller:

We have gone through major religious shifts secular, decreased church attendance right across North America. What does the Pentecostal Church face today? What does the Pentecostal Church face today? I noticed in the latest poll that the Assemblies of God has maintained her numbers over the last few years, while most churches have diminished in their numbers. And so, given that, what are the issues that the Assemblies of God, as the major Pentecostal church in the US, what is it facing today?

Byron Klaus:

You know I can only speak for. You know the church I'm ordained in, the Assemblies of God. We're actually the second largest group in the US. The largest group is primarily African-American Church of God and Christ. We're about 3 million in inheritance. Church of God and Christ is about 6 million, so I can't speak for them.

Byron Klaus:

However, I think that, as, shall we say, a movement that came out of what you might call an awakening. Anytime you get generations away from the flashpoint, the combustion point, things just change. We can look at the natural progression of any movement. It moves away from its initial vibrancy to structures that are created to support that vibrancy, and then the structures themselves become what we support. That is certainly the case in our movement. However, I think there are two things that have maintained what seems to be an anomaly in the church today in America, and that is we continue to grow slowly, and I think there's several things. Number one you know we are over 40% people of color and we are pushing 40 plus percent. That are about 40% people under 35 years old. We have been involved with people who have immigrated to the United States. The truth is that the immigrant populations that are a part of the summits of God do keep us revitalized and do add to our numbers, and the fact that we have been across the board, been able to attract young people with a 40% adherent population at, you know, under 35 years old, that's pretty good. And so we've been able to. We've met those challenges and have continued growing because of those, have continued growing because of those.

Byron Klaus:

I think you know the sort of bifurcated world that we live in today. People are always wanting statements to be made by officials, by congregational leaders, by national leaders. You know what is the church's stance on these things, and I think that there is no doubt that we have been historically apolitical. That has changed over the years. For instance, the Assemblies of God historically was a pacifist organization and you know that obviously is not a primary DNA of our organization today, dna of our organization today. There is no doubt that the culture has impacted us.

Byron Klaus:

We have resisted in some cases and we have capitulated in others, and I think that the kinds of issues gender identity, all these kinds of issues that are overwhelming us, kinds of issues that are overwhelming us we have a strong background, you know, a part of our DNA is a holiness background, and so there has been a resistance to these kinds of intrusions on the same but at the same point, because we have resisted those, we have isolated ourselves and not engaged those things in a meaningful way. We have simply said that's wrong or we shouldn't be part of that, and that's not a strategy over the long haul, particularly when you're dealing with younger people who are influenced by things that their parents were not influenced by. So I would say we're struggling. In all those areas.

Byron Klaus:

We have certainly made clear statements. You know, when it comes to immigration, when it comes to racism, when it comes to gender identity, we have strong statements on those things. However, when you get to the congregational level, it's a mixed bag and I think that the numbers would tell us that at times we affirm things officially but question them unofficially at the grassroots level. So I would not be saying that we have resisted all of the cultural intrusions into our life at all. We have been impacted just like any other organization.

Brian Stiller:

And, over the last few years, the culture wars that seem to be marked by the political divide. Surely that must have an impact on both the nature of the church, its witness, and its theology of the church, its witness and its theology.

Byron Klaus:

We struggle like any other group. I'm conflicted in this area. I see in many cases leaders identifying themselves with political movements and political leadership, and I'm deeply concerned about that. As I get older, I must admit to you that I'm becoming increasingly apolitical, that I have deep, deep concerns for the poor, for the needy, for the bypassed in life, but I am increasingly wary of all voices in the political world because I just think that we truly are, we're citizens of heaven and we're here to represent the kingdom of God, and I'm not sure that any political vision comes anywhere close to the kinds of priorities that exist in the kingdom of God. And so we are facing the political forces that all too often have in a sense captured our hearts, and that's true of my organization as well as others our hearts, and that's true of my organization as well as others.

Brian Stiller:

Is there anything particularly about the Pentecostal ethos, its message, its formulation that allows it to do something or not do something? Given the political divide and the issues that seem to grind away at the American people I hear, without listing all the social political issues and personalities that are part of your scene do Pentecostals traditionally stay outside of making any kind of social statement that might be shaped by a biblical worldview, or are they just? Are they pacifist as it relates to the social political world as well?

Byron Klaus:

I think our holiness background has kept us from what I would call a rigorous engagement with social issues. You know I grew up on. You know, come apart and be separate, sayeth the Lord. Issues you know I grew up on, you know, come apart and be separate, saith the Lord. And so we just sort of worked our way. We kept, we kept clear of those kinds of things.

Byron Klaus:

However, I'll give you an example. You know, when you have 40 percent plus of your adherents being people of color and the majority of that group being Hispanic, and obviously that is an immigrant group coming to the United States, you have to get involved because many of the people who attend our churches are undocumented. So you get drawn into these kinds of things. And when you don't have a long history of engaging the public square with deep theological thought, sometimes your responses are hit and miss. Ok, they're not as strong as they might be.

Byron Klaus:

I mean, we're not, we're not the Catholic Church and have this, you know, couple thousand years of public policy dealing with things. We don't have that. We have been largely the folks that on the other side of the tracks who have been fodder for every populist movement that comes along and we don't deal with things well, but we're doing better. Okay, and I think, particularly around the immigration issue, we have made some very strong statements about our commitment to those who have been bypassed by the world, and I think that we are. We are coming along on gender identity issues, but we don't have a strong history and therefore our responses at times are a mixed bag. Therefore, our responses at times are a mixed bag and we don't have a lot of articulate voices.

Brian Stiller:

A growing number, but not a lot of articulate voices. Byron, let's shift to the globe. You suggested in one of your articles that the Pentecostal message is a message that travels. That travels well, it seems, as the Pentecostal message has given energy to the larger evangelical movement. This message has gone global, so that today the global South, as we call it Africa, latin America and Asia seems to be the center of the growth of Christianity.

Byron Klaus:

Harvey Cox, the Harvard theologian, in 1993 wrote a book entitled Fire from Heaven, and in that book he made a prediction, and that was that 21st century Christianity would thrive in the global South and it would be largely Pentecostal charismatic. I think he's correct in that If we I mean right now Pentecostal charismatic movement is the largest component of Protestantism, and I think that the reality is is that where the gospel is most resisted and least accessible is the place that the church is most vibrant today, and that is in the global South. So the predictions of Cox back in 1993 have absolutely become, you know, reality and it's documented in data. So there's no doubt that. And the phrase that I used in one of those books was a phrase I borrowed from Harvey Cox, which he called Pentecostalism, a religion made to travel. That in fact it was a seed that could be planted in any culture and emerge with vibrancy.

Brian Stiller:

And why do you think that was or is?

Byron Klaus:

Well, I think that early Pentecostal missionaries who went around the world and you know the way I view Pentecostal history is through the lens I mean my organization, the Assemblies of God. My denomination is, you know, not quite 3 million in the United States but 80 million worldwide we made a commitment in 1914 as an organization to the greatest evangelism the world has ever seen. So when you look at, the one way to look at Pentecostalism is that it has been essentially a mission society. And so we have gone around the world.

Byron Klaus:

And one of the things that we affirmed in those early years was written by an early Anglican missionary who was prominent at that time but viewed as an outlier by the Anglican church.

Byron Klaus:

His name was Roland Allen and he wrote. One of the books he wrote was called the Spontaneous Expansion of the Church and in short, it basically said that the gospel inherently could grow on its own when planted. He looked at the book of Acts and saw the assumptions of Paul and the apostles as they went to these places, believing that through general revelation God had already been revealed and there was going to be the gospel. Seeds planted could grow in any culture, in a sense empowered by the Spirit, and emerge looking like that culture. Those are the assumptions that we went around the world with and I think that, as we look at today, what we see happening is those same assumptions that when the gospel is planted in any culture, though it may historically have nothing to do minimally with Christianity, it can grow because the roots of the expansion of the church are, in a sense, founded in the movement of the Holy Spirit.

Brian Stiller:

What do you learn from the growth of the church in those areas? What can we in the West receive from them, as the church grows with such rapidity?

Byron Klaus:

I think one of the first things we learn about, particularly we who are in a fairly secure situation, is we can learn about the reality of the vibrancy of Christianity in the middle of suffering, in the middle of totalitarian regimes, in the middle of, you know, aggression and violence. That the church can thrive, that God is with us in the midst of difficult situations, in the midst of poverty. He is our provider when there is no medical care, he is our healer. Those are the kinds of things that we can learn. We have become way too secure in the human resources we have accessible to us that we haven't relied on the Spirit to us, that we haven't relied on the Spirit. And we need to learn from these churches in the global South, many of whom live in those kinds of circumstances, that without God's provision, they have nothing. Without God's protection, they're toast. Okay, so that's the first thing we learn. We learn the church and suffering. We need to learn that big time because they can teach us a lot.

Byron Klaus:

I think another piece is that the kinds of themes, culturally, that they're part of their history and their life and their society, are things that the Spirit of God can speak to, are things that the Spirit of God can speak to that.

Byron Klaus:

You know, as Roland Allen said and looked at the Book of Acts, that the Spirit of God emerged in all kinds of cultural settings and we need to allow it to do so. And while it can be informed by the established church from the West, we need to look at the incipient versions of these Christian movements and not look at them as merely oh, these children, when they grow up they'll really be vibrant. They're vibrant from the get-go. They need undergirding for sustaining over a period of time, but they are vibrant from their births and I think that we need to again understand that we have not learned all there is theologically. We don't have it all down, okay, we can't live in our secure ivory towers and look at these movements as nice little, you know, sort of children in their exuberance. Oh, they'll sort of grow up one day and realize the truth.

Brian Stiller:

Well, they're growing up and they're expanding and they understand the meaning of what it means to follow Jesus in ways we have forgotten 125 years later, byron, you've got a mature Pentecostal movement at least mature by 125 years, Right, but you have various spinoffs that we see emerging in various ways, often within political rhetoric. You see this not only in Canada and the US, but you see it in places of Brazil and Zambia and Hungary and wherever else you go. What are the lessons we're learning of the Pentecostal movement, its core and its message by which it enables the church, and the kind of spinoffs that may, for some of us, create some concern?

Byron Klaus:

Yeah, for me, the spinoffs have to do with what I would call Achilles heels that are part of our movement. I think we have to face these Achilles heels. I think one of the Achilles heels is that we value what the sociologist Max Weber called the charismatic leader, that is, we call them pioneers. Okay, that is a person who has a strong voice, an appealing capability of communication that seems to offer a message that is needed at the time to counteract cultural influences, and people look at that leader and say this person speaks for God. That is an Achilles heel in the Pentecostal movement.

Byron Klaus:

I don't think we're the only ones that have that Achilles heel, but we have had it in a substantial way over the years. I think that many of these movements that have emerged that are siphoning off energy do speak to this Achilles heel that we have, which is a propensity to listen to a person we think has been sent from God. Okay, and that is this charismatic leader. And charismatic leaders are obviously visible, capable, communicate very, very well, have a message that resonates with people. But they also create movements because people vicariously live through them and experience the vibrancy of spiritual faith through these people. And I think if I were to say there is one Achilles heel, that's the Achilles heel.

Brian Stiller:

So we look onto the future, and you've been a head of a seminary for a number of years. You've trained pastors and missional leaders. What would you have to say to a young Byron Claus today that's emerging in their 20s or early 30s?

Byron Klaus:

I would want, first of all, to caution them on being overconfident, because we have so many human resources at our availability. We've got technology, we've got social media, we've got all these things, these things that human beings can manipulate for initiatives, whether it be economic or spiritual or whatever. So I would caution it over confidence. I would also suggest a humility, a humility about one's own capacity to, in a sense, do something that nobody else has ever done. One of the things that I find interesting about a lot of younger leaders today is they actually believe that the things they're thinking have never been thought of before. Okay, and I would suggest that making friends of people cross-generationally, that there's a real strength in having perspective on folks who have lived a few lives and can say I heard that song 50 years ago and it was in a different key, but it's the same song being sung right now.

Byron Klaus:

I think there's a I would build if I was a young person. I want to build into leadership with a strong base of people who I learn to trust. I would want to find a team of people my own age and older than me who can walk with me through a journey of emerging leadership. A journey of emerging leadership. Obviously, I think that strong theological training is really important. I don't think that one can just sort of have natural capacity. You know you could be a good, you know salesman in any industry and therefore you communicate well and you can be a church leader. I think that you have to have strong theological roots. So I think that those two things building a long-term relationship hub that can keep you over a long period of time in the ups and downs of leadership, and strong theological training are the two things that I'd really want to encourage a younger version of me to pursue.

Brian Stiller:

Byron, it's been wonderful having you today on Evangelical 360. And again let me just thank you for the decades of service you have given to the church here in North America and globally and wishing you God's best as you continue, especially in your global activities, serving the Lord in ways that I guess you and I years ago never thought would be possible.

Byron Klaus:

Yeah well, thank you, Brian. A great opportunity to be with you on Evangelical 360. And, like you, I look back at our times together and who would have thought it that we would be at this point in our lives today? And thank God for his graciousness and his blessing on our lives.

Brian Stiller:

Thank you, byron, for joining us today and helping us understand the global and generational impact of the Pentecostal movement, and thank you for being a part of the podcast. Be sure to share this podcast. Use hashtag Evangelical360 and join the conversation on YouTube. If you'd like to learn more about today's guest, check the show notes for links and info, and if you haven't already received my free e-book and newsletter, go to brianstillercom. Thanks again, until next time.

Brian Stiller:

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