evangelical 360°

Ep. 43 / Faith in the Public Square: The Cardus Institute Story ► Michael Van Pelt

• Host Brian Stiller • Season 1 • Episode 43

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When Michael Van Pelt and his colleague Ray Pennings founded Cardus twenty-five years ago, they had a revolutionary insight: politics follows culture, not the other way around. Starting with just $42,000, this Canadian Christian think-tank has grown into an $8 million organization that's become one of North America's most respected policy voices—all while maintaining an explicitly faith-based perspective in one of the world's most secular societies.

Van Pelt reveals the secret to their unlikely success: being "Christian, credible, and public." Rather than retreating from secular spaces or compromising their beliefs, Cardus researchers bring rigorous scholarship and a posture of hospitality to their work on issues ranging from family policy to medical ethics. This approach has earned them a place at the table in mainstream media and policy circles that traditionally exclude religious voices.

Drawing from both Reformed theology and broader Christian traditions, the organization navigates the delicate balance between prophetic witness and constructive engagement. Their work on controversial topics like Canada's medical assistance in dying legislation exemplifies how biblical principles can provide innovative frameworks for addressing contemporary challenges. As Van Pelt explains, "Even in cultural decline, even in an environment where you're sometimes seeing really troublesome animosity, there's that little yearning that just never can go away."

The conversation explores how Christians should respond to changing cultural landscapes, including the rise of Christian nationalism in the United States and increasing secularization in Canada. Van Pelt suggests that in today's "Daniel in Babylon moment," believers must work respectfully within existing systems while maintaining clear theological foundations. This approach allows space for genuine pluralism without abandoning truth claims.

For those wrestling with how faith can meaningfully engage public life, Van Pelt's journey from 12-year-old political activist to think-tank leader offers a compelling alternative to both religious withdrawal and culture war mentalities. In a time of societal anxiety and purposelessness, he sees unprecedented opportunity for Christian witness—not through imposing belief, but by demonstrating how the gospel brings flourishing to institutions, communities, and individual lives. 

You can learn more about the Cardus Institute through their website, Facebook and Instagram.

And you can share this episode using hashtag #Evangelical360 and join the conversation online! 

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Brian Stiller:

Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360. I'm your host, brian Stiller, and I'm pleased to share with you another conversation with leaders, changemakers and influencers impacting Christian life around the world. My guest today is Michael Van Pelt, ceo of the Cardus Institute, a Canadian-based non-partisan Christian think tank. The mission of Cardus is to clarify and strengthen the ways our society's institutions can work together for the common good. At a time when many religious institutions are increasingly suspect of seeking to control civil life and impose their faith on society, the work of Curtis and Michael Van Pelt stands apart as a reputable, inspiring and innovative alternative, a model of evangelical mission and witness in a secular age. So listen in and join the conversation on YouTube in the comments below, and be sure to subscribe and share this episode using hashtag Evangelical360. Michael Van Pelt, welcome to Evangelical360.

Michael Van Pelt:

It's so good to be here A wonderful spring day. Nothing like having a conversation with Brian Stiller. It's an honor.

Brian Stiller:

But I got to ask you this question, Michael. In a secular country like Canada, what in the world gave you any idea that developing a religious voice in the public square had any chance of success?

Michael Van Pelt:

Good question. We struggled with this question already now 25 years ago. My colleague a little bit of a backstory, brian my colleague Ray Pennings and I both had come out of very active political lives front lines, hammering up signs, working in partisan environments and over time, as we got older, just realized that being able to, the ability to be effective as a Christian in the public arena, needed more than just the partisan and the political dynamic. And it was really this understanding at that time, more intuitive than anything else, that politics actually follows culture and not the reverse, culture and not the reverse. And that got us thinking how do we build, or should we build, an institution that is framed a little bit differently than just being in the political, direct political partisan arena? And that really was the start of what CARDUS is today.

Michael Van Pelt:

And the idea in the beginning was to be Christian, credible and public. And what do I mean by that? Really, what it is to be mean Christian. We are deeply Christian, basically rooted our thinking in the word and in the history of the church. That's number one. Credible was basically this idea that we had to hold to the scrutiny of those who even disagreed with us passionately. So the research had to be top notch. Our academics had to be the best we could find. And then public. We were not just talking to ourselves, not just talking to a Christian community. We wanted a broader spectrum of leaders to hear what we had to say and to realize that the Christian tradition just has something good to offer. Our debates of today, that's really what it was debates of today.

Brian Stiller:

That's really what it was. I hear a story of a 12-year-old boy who stands in a political meeting and mouths off about the importance of Christian education and gets a standing ovation. Does that bear some semblance?

Michael Van Pelt:

You know, in one way, brian, you should have never brought that up. In one way that inspired me as a young man and my colleague Ray had, I think, similar experiences this kind of passion, right from this time, of a growing young man realizing that there actually was a public, realizing that the decisions in public had impacts on our community lives as well. That said, though, the idea of a 12-year-old getting a standing ovation isn't good for building a 12-year-old man's ego. And you know what? Maybe my mother should have just given me a little kind of slap on the head and sit down, young man, I'm not sure what would have been the better choice.

Brian Stiller:

But, Michael, you must have described the home environment that would even give you the inkling that such a thing was not only possible but could be done.

Michael Van Pelt:

Yeah, that's maybe a bit of a tougher question because the tradition that I come from I come from the Dutch immigrant tradition came in the 1950s Very religious, very conservative in our thinking. Both my father and mother were not educated. I think my mother had grade 10. But here's the interesting thing. That I think was the animator to me.

Michael Van Pelt:

My mother is a very pious woman. She's deeply in the word and somehow and I still wonder about this today, many, many years later somehow that occupation with the Word of God somehow gave my mother the ability to kind of understand my musings about Kierkegaard or Nietzsche or St Thomas Aquinas or the ancients or the politics of the day. Her responses had a gentle wisdom to them and she was always a gentle encourager in that space. My father was more the entrepreneur let's make things happen, let's get up and do something. Today my mother was the gentle advisor and, lord willing, I carry some of those gifts into today.

Michael Van Pelt:

Oftentimes I don't. We're broken people as I am, but that's really the history and I see it as God's gift of providence. I really do, brian, to be now leading a think tank 25 years later with a budget of 8 million and 40 staff and 40 senior fellows, I don't know what you think about this, brian, but it's a pretty unlikely idea, in a highly secularized Canadian space, to build a think tank that's deeply Christian in its orientation. I wonder about how that works.

Brian Stiller:

Well, it seems to me that your starting place as your Dutch Reformed community, which is very much schooled in Abraham Kuyper's ideas of church and culture, that was an important starting point and it seems to me that it's really shaped Cardus and what the think tank does. Am I right? And if I am, can you give us a background and descriptor of that?

Michael Van Pelt:

It's interesting to see that development Because, yes, kuyper's idea late 19th, early 20th century prime minister of the Netherlands, but he was a great thinker and his idea was that Jesus Christ has lordship over all of the earth, not just over our own individual hearts and our own character and demeanor, but over all of the institutions of society. And we as Christians need to have a responsibility to build those institutions in the name of Jesus Christ. This is not a triumphalistic kind of idea, it's a service idea that Christians can be involved in day-to-day work environments or day-to-day educational environments. That was an inspiration Tie that to, let's say, a Francis Schaeffer Tie that to even you might remember.

Michael Van Pelt:

Remember Chuck Colson's book how Now Shall we Live. Picking up on Francis Schaeffer's work earlier work, chuck Colson's book how Now Shall we Live was really rooted in kind of that historic thinking, kuyper, and of the Dutch reform traditions and then many since then. Many evangelicals both in Canada and the United States have lived into that idea and I think it's grown in a much more positive way into the larger church environment of North America. That's been a good thing.

Brian Stiller:

There's a distinction here. So you have, if you can use kind of the polarities, if you can use kind of the polarities, you have the more Wesleyan, Armenian view of spirituality that Christ is really about saving the person and preparing us for eternity. And then you've got the Reformed view that all of life is the Lord's and the gospel should engage in every part of the culture. So you've got those two differing views of the witness of the gospel and culture Is that fair.

Michael Van Pelt:

It's interesting because I kind of go back to my mother on this, because my mother would argue and would say to me, michael, if the way you experience your experiential life of knowing Jesus Christ and how he guides you as Lord over you and Lord over all you do, is an essential element, is a key element for you to have any kind of permission to be in leadership in a public arena. So see how she tied those really in some ways those two ideas together. But I do think that if you go to the fundamental of Cardas and this is not only resident in reform thinking, it's also resident in kind of Catholic social thought traditions as well that the idea of our Christian faith speaks not just to our individual hearts, not just to even our family structures, but to the broader institutions of society. And it was interesting you sent me this note kind of just as preparation for this. It got me thinking about really what is our right as, or our obligation, as responsibility as Christians to be in the public space.

Michael Van Pelt:

And I've been musing on this over the last number of days in kind of preparation and in some waysing on this over the last number of days in kind of preparation and in some ways it's really just this simple expression of the two greatest commandments love God and love your neighbor. And then, you know, brian and Michael get involved in this conversation. What does it mean, michael, or what does it mean Brian, to love your neighbor? Does that just mean an individual relationship from one to another? Does that mean being involved in social organizations that help others? Does that mean being involved in institutions that have deep care for the poor? And does that even involve meaning being involved in political institutions that form how we actually govern ourselves together? Those are really kind of critical questions, and ones that I think are as salient today as they were when I was the young man at age 12.

Brian Stiller:

But the Christian Reformed vision of the gospel and culture has brought Cardus into being in a more deliberate way than, say, the broader evangelical community would inspire. So your inspiration out of that Christian reform view is pretty deliberate, is it not?

Michael Van Pelt:

I think in the early days, yes, for sure, but I think as time developed. So think about that in 2000. That was definitely an animating gift that we had an understanding about how Christians can live in public life. But over time that just grows and develops. Today Cardus is as reliant on Catholic social thought as it is on some of the historic thinking around in the Anglican traditions and in the evangelical traditions as well. The evangelical tradition has already a growing, very activist life and increasingly the evangelical traditions are building the kind of intellectual capital that, let's say, 100 years ago it never had. So those worlds are changing dramatically over time and I'm delighted that Cardus in some ways represents so many different Christian traditions today. But the heart of it is a deep understanding of who we are as created in the image of God, a deep understanding of what Christians and how they ought to play in public institutions and a commitment that Jesus Christ is Lord over all of these institutions, even in a secular space.

Brian Stiller:

Michael, I want to come back to the specifics of Cardus and what you do, how you're organized and what strategies you have in place. But just this very conversation is taking place during a time when here in North America we have the American community, many of those who are rooted in the vision that their country was always Christian and therefore should be Christian, taking on a particular kind of almost super-Cyperian view that not only should the gospel inform the culture but the gospel should rule the culture. So you've got that as, I suppose, a bit of a competing paradigm to the very thing you've just described. Can you comment?

Brian Stiller:

on that.

Michael Van Pelt:

Yeah, I think it's a great question. You know sometimes when you take ideas and you just extend them so far that the actual heart of the idea gets lost. So you know you can run into the challenges of Christian nationalism.

Michael Van Pelt:

I think if you look on the US side, compared, let's say, to the Canadian side, the expression of the evangelical tradition at least, is the evangelical experiment in the United States is much more tied to the nation state, is much more tied to the American project.

Michael Van Pelt:

There are some beautiful things about that, but there's also some risks to that, that you actually confuse the vibrancy and the character of the nation state as a political order with the very kingdom of God which scripture teaches us to be very cautious about.

Michael Van Pelt:

When we understand the kingdom of God for sure, christ died and Christ arose and Christ will return again. He has conquered all and his kingdom is coming. But we often forget the here and the not yet and I think sometimes in our political orientations or ideologies or even expressions we're a little bit more kind of like thinking we can bring kind of the new heavens back into our moment and wipe sin away and all will be good, tying the Christian faith and the Christian tradition so tightly to the nation-state or to the American project can cause significant trouble, and I think that is one of the challenges of evangelicalism in the United States. However, you have the weaknesses on the Canadian side, where you've oftentimes been tempted to completely create binaries where religious expression really has no entry or opportunity to influence the nation state or the decisions of government. That's also a troubled order as well, so finding that balance is absolutely critical.

Brian Stiller:

Okay, let's come back to Cardus as a think tank. It's resident here in Canada and you have offices in the US, but it's more of a think tank. It's resident here in Canada and you have offices in the US, but it's more of a global enterprise, is it not?

Michael Van Pelt:

The heart of our day-to-day life at Cardus is a Canadian life, so that could be practical public policy work. So, for example, as a think tank think about a typical think tank more known in the United States and Canada but we're doing lots of research on child care issues of the day. We are one of the leading thinkers on the very troubling trend of medical assistance in dying in Canada. It's frightening what's happening in Canada on that file. We could be doing very practical research and public policy work on gambling. Be doing very practical research and public policy work on gambling. So many of those very important salient issues, public policy issues of the day. We have teams who are working on them and embedding our ideas into the public conversation and making sure that we are contesting some of the more difficult trends that you're seeing in society. On the US side, our comment magazine, led by Ann Snyder, who's our editor-in-chief, is more read in the United States than it is in Canada. It's very prominent in the United States. And then, second of all, we are one of the lead North American researchers on Christian education. So we have done very significant work through the Cardus Education Survey on the state of Christian education in the United States. Looking at graduate outcomes, it's fascinating. Ten years ago there was a simple kind of recognition or idea or assumption that those who attended Christian schools would be bigoted, would be socially divisive, were not contributors to society. Over time we've simply proven through good research and through good public engagement that that's simply not the case, and it shows that graduates of Christian education are actually significant contributors to our public life. So that's an example of us doing work in Canada and in the United States.

Michael Van Pelt:

It's interesting, though you may remember just the debates on assisted suicide in the United Kingdom just a couple months ago. For a period of time, my researcher colleagues were being called every other day. You know Canada has already advanced in this area, which is a troubling scene in our country. What do we do in the United Kingdom? This is a way for us to be able to offer some of our work in a much broader international context as well. But the day-to-day life of Cardas is a Canadian life and there is just you know, you know this better than anyone, brian there's just so much work to do there and there are so many opportunities. It's a troubled, troubled time, but underneath that troubled time there is a yearning and there is an anxiousness for something, and people can only live without purpose for so long Given the kind of the cultural assumption that secularity is the preferred way in Canada.

Brian Stiller:

How have you been able to wedge your way into the conversation on issues, on public policy, on trends? What's been your avenue of entrance?

Michael Van Pelt:

That's a really good question. I would put it in maybe three ways. Number one is posture, number two is perspective and number three is quality. And what I mean by posture is we've committed at Cardus. We are always, we are going to live a life of hospitality.

Michael Van Pelt:

One of our taglines is we believe in a hopeful future, and that needs to show up in my face. I need to look at Brian and he needs to see that I actually do believe in a hopeful future. That also plays out in terms of how we are hospitable to even those who disagree with us. So CARDIS is constantly welcoming those who disagree with what our public policy positions are into our spaces and having conversations. So, number one, if you want to work at CARDIS, you need to be hospitable, you need to love those who disagree with you. That's number one.

Michael Van Pelt:

Number two is there's just numerous ways where the biblical narrative has so many innovative ways of approaching public policy.

Michael Van Pelt:

So, for example, if you look at child care, today we have a national child care program that is so much focused on what government can actually do and is oftentimes forgets that the heart of child care has to be the child number one and has to be rooted in how God created families to care for children.

Michael Van Pelt:

So those biblical kind of directives can oftentimes today have really innovative and creative ways of making suggestions about how to do child care from a public policy point of view very different. The final thing is we have to be the best we can be. You have to have quality research and, I think, curtis, over a period of time, by really committing to having the best thinkers, the best academics. I often talk we need academics who can talk to normal human beings. That's not an easy thing, brian, as you well know, but we've got to find them and they've got to withstand the scrutiny of those who disagree, of a secularized market. And I think over time, with God's providential care, we have been able to communicate and gain the reputation and confidence of those who even disagree with us, which then gets you into a space where you can actually have true public dialogue which then gets you into a space where you can actually have true public dialogue.

Brian Stiller:

In that plurality of views, you have an operating pluralism whereby the very many views are seen as legitimate. How do you, as a Christian think tank, land on what you put forward without being taken in by others? People are concerned that pluralism allows everything to be true and if everything is true, nothing is really true.

Michael Van Pelt:

That's a really good question, brian, and we debate that question. Let me, in some ways, we debate that question with this kind of approach what is our moment? What is our cultural moment that we're in today? And let's talk specifically about Canada, and we would all agree that Canada has developed to the point where it's not only a highly secularized society, it's a post-secular culture that in many ways has a complete amnesia about what it is that the Christian tradition and Christian beliefs can offer people's lives day to day and can offer institutions.

Michael Van Pelt:

Today, oftentimes we talk about are we a prophet in Israel or are we Daniel in Babylon? What is our moment today? I'd love to know what you think about that Right now. We think our moment today is a little bit more of the Daniel in Babylon moment, and what does that actually mean? That actually means that you need to take your ideas, be respectful of the cultural and governance dynamics of which you work in and try to change them from that inside out perspective rather than imposing them in some ideal way of how we would love to see society organized. It's more judgment and wisdom that you need at this time.

Michael Van Pelt:

But yes, let's be clear, there are many who can interpret our pluralistic moment as a superficial or kind of casually said a wishy-washy kind of moment.

Michael Van Pelt:

You can think this and you can think that this is where both the Word of God and the history of the Christian church can set you on a very, very strong pattern.

Michael Van Pelt:

When you have a theological understanding or biblical understanding of who we are as humans, created in the image of God, that will consistently inform you on, let's say, a particular policy idea like medical assistance and dying. It's interesting. I'm even observing, within the Christian community, significant compromise on this issue and I wonder if it is rooted in a lack of a deep understanding about the nature of suffering and the nature of who we are as image bearers of God and what our responsibilities are to each other and how to grow old and how to die. Naturally, all of those questions deep, deep, in some ways theological, many ways biblical questions. If you can't hold on to those with an integrity, I promise you, eventually you'll not hold on to a practical public policy position of saying, and really with a prophetic voice today, that assisted suicide and the path that our Canadian government has gone on, assisted suicide, is going to cause deep, deep trouble for our country and it will.

Brian Stiller:

Let's use that as a, as a a test case, as, if you like. What? What are the constituent factors in the Canadian culture? It's its life, its public policy and so forth. What has brought it about to the place where this medical assistance assistance in dying has became, became such a favored initiative of government? And of course it's producing an unforeseen number of deaths. But what brought that about?

Michael Van Pelt:

Yeah, that's a really interesting kind of like. Let's parse out history and try to kind of get to this point of what got us here and in some ways, in a charitable way I would put it to amnesia. Basically, we over time just assumed ourselves to be a Christian country, or largely a country, that's Christian, largely influenced, and we are. The gift of rule of law, even today, is a gift of a Judeo-Christian tradition. Let's not forget that. But over time our own individual commitments, our own familial commitments, our own church commitments, our broader institutional commitments, lost the heart of what it is the gospel, lost the heart of who Jesus Christ is as Lord and Savior, lord over all of the world, including of our decisions as countries as we grow in a secular mindset. I oftentimes hear if I could just do a sidebar on this when I speak to many across the country they're angry at the government, and rightly so. But I often say be careful, it may be your neighbor, that's the problem, which is sometimes a subtle way for me saying be careful, you may be the problem. So we've allowed a certain kind of cultural milieu to happen that has removed ourselves, that has created a very significant distance from the understanding, the deep understanding and gift of the Christian tradition and from the day-to-day direction of Scripture to the point where a certain kind of leadership and you can see it in some of the research that we've done with the Angus Reid Institute that a certain kind of leadership there's. Let's say, maybe just for on the kind of far spectrum there's a significant amount of players who are pretty antagonistic to religion. And when some of those players are given opportunity for leadership in our public life and they understand the human person very differently than you and I might understand the person when they see utility more important than being in the image of God, when they want to fight against suffering at all costs to the real, authentic Christian experience of brokenness and renewal, then you have all of a sudden a control issue. And if that community is controlling our public life as in this particular case it is then you will get a legislative and in this case, on medical assistance in dying, you had a judicial decision and then you had legislative decisions and then all kinds of regulatory environments that essentially allowed us ridiculous and troublesome flexibility on this issue.

Michael Van Pelt:

To the point, if I would maybe take a more troubled point on this, my colleague Ray Pennings, our co-founder has often said to me Michael, assisted suicide or MAID is not just about MAID. It is a change in our whole understanding of how we care for one another. It is a change that the minute you, let's say Brian, walk into a healthcare center or a hospital, the calculus becomes a little bit different. And that cultural mindset is an insidious one, because all of a sudden you've lost who Brian is in the eyes of God and you start to see Brian as framed in the utility that he provides.

Michael Van Pelt:

And that's where and you can view that on many, many issues, but this is the heart of that issue and you can view that on many, many issues, but this is the heart of that issue when you get the wrong leadership, when you allow institutions to have that kind of secular commitment, over time, it's going to have those consequences. That's why we, as people of faith, need to be humbly active in public life every day, no matter what the consequences are and no matter what the influence we might have. There is a fundamental baseline of obedience that puts us there, and it may be in a prophetic voice. It also may be in a moment where we actually do have leadership and actually can influence legislation and legal direction and judicial direction.

Brian Stiller:

Michael, how do you choose what issue to deal with? Is there a grid? Is there a litmus test? On what basis do you say we're going to focus on that? We aren't going to focus on that.

Michael Van Pelt:

That's sometimes a really difficult question that we have a lot of debate in internally at Cardus. So there's a couple of ways of approaching it. Number one you can say what are the main issues of our public life today, what are the most salient issues? What is a deepest concern In this case? If you take medical assistance in dying, that would be a really, really good example of an issue that's in the moment and needs to be tackled and you really have no choice about it. Here's another one. You know, I don't know if you watch hockey, but if you watch hockey, then you're watching online gambling and it's just become everywhere. So there's that issue of the moment where we at Cardis need to go hold on a sec here. Let's look at the consequences society and, quite frankly, a government being willing to open up online gambling to, in some ways, the most vulnerable in our society the rise of gambling for young men is deeply concerning. So those are two examples where they're in the public space and you have to tackle them right off.

Michael Van Pelt:

Another way of looking at this is going what are the most central kind of institutions of society that we need to be thinking about that influence our day-to-day lives? So, for example, we have a very active Cardas family file. You know marriage isn't the end thing to talk about nowadays, but guess what Cardas is doing? We're doing the leading research on marriage and I go to my colleagues at TARDIS Family just stick with this, because the institution of marriage is fundamental to the ordering of society, even if you are not Christian. So we will stick to that research area, no matter what Childcare. So you have this whole familiar, all the questions around fertility, big questions today that's centered around a fundamental institution called family.

Michael Van Pelt:

Another example would be education. If you dig deep into scripture, you will very quickly learn that as parents we are the first educators. Teachers teach in local parentis, the in the place of the parent, and the christian tradition has been well known for developing some of the most remarkable educational institutions in the in the world. So that kind of institution around education is fundamental for us to be researching about, to be trying to influence society about and to repair what has been broken in these spaces. So those are two structural examples and then two very practical day-to-day examples. And you have to be careful about how you resource these. If you spend too much time in the day-to-day moment, before you know it. You're going to be a political organization fighting for the moment, but you need to be a bigger thinker than that. You need to frame the intellectual community that will really give rise to change.

Brian Stiller:

And where does the transgender issue fit within those choices?

Michael Van Pelt:

Yeah, this is an interesting one. We haven't done a lot of specific research on this file. In fact, I think that the whole kind of trending on transgenderism, thanks to some of the incidences in the UK, for example, are kind of on the downward on this. But let's go back up the bus to a deeper understanding of who we are as family and who we are as persons, created in the image of God, the basic understanding of marriage and the relationship of male to female and what our responsibilities are from a reproductive point of view. That's the foundation. Then after that we have to choose which issues are we going to tackle? And this particular one on transgenderism we haven't tackled directly. Our biggest priority has been around marriage has been around child care has been around fertility as well

Brian Stiller:

how do you evaluate your success?

Brian Stiller:

or is there a? Is success even a legitimate word as an influencer?

Michael Van Pelt:

I think it is. I think it is. I think we need to be accountable for the resources that many patrons from over canada and the united States put to Cardis and the amount of time and effort so many in the Cardis community put toward our work. So there needs to be an accountability and you can say how does that turn and measure into success. Here's the caution of this. It is my view that we are in both a moment of kind of cultural decline and what do I mean by that? If I would use an example, I think the consequences of the 1960s sexual and cultural revolution are playing themselves out and they are bringing trouble along the way and we can't think that there are not consequences to all those, that collection of decisions that we've made over decades on this file. We will pay a price for that. So in some ways you're going to see cultural decline. In some ways you're going to see political decisions that are even more troubling. I think that's the broader context. That said, I think there are all kinds of seeds of renewal if you're willing to look for them. But on a more practical basis, are we doing credible enough research that mainstream media outlets and alternative media outlets are willing to hear was engaging with two leading economists on TVO here in Ontario, one of the most respected kind of public policy commentators in all of Ontario. That would be a measurement of success. Why were they willing and interested in hearing from Cardas, knowing Cardas thinks from a Christian perspective? The reason is is because we had good ideas. The reason is is because we knew how to make credible, credible arguments in the salient discussions, in the debates of today. So that would be a measurement of success. Another practical measurement of success is can you attract, over a long period of time, a community of philanthropists that are committed to cultural and political renewal in this country?

Michael Van Pelt:

I spent most of my time traveling across Canada, both encouraging business leaders and civil society leaders to say we need, as Christians and as a Christian community, to be leaning into our public life, not moving away from our public life. And you know what, brian? You've done public life a lot longer than I have and I have no idea how many times you may have gone home and said I'm done, I'm tired out, I'm finished with public life. But you have to wake up in the morning and Brian Stiller says to himself no, that's not what God has called me to do, I need to be in public life. So there's that animating force that I've seen in you for many, many years and you know what People like me need to model that and our team needs to model that. You know, in a spiritual way, I call that just simply obedience. We have to be obedient to God and it's nice here and there to have some successes to spur on the obedience, that's for sure.

Brian Stiller:

One evening I was doing a CBC debate with someone on some issue. This was some years ago and I drove to downtown Toronto, to the CBC headquarters, did the debate, drove home and I knew my dear mother would be watching. So I called her on my way home and eventually said Mother, did you see the program? Yes, brian, I saw it. What did you think, mother? There was no comment forthcoming, so I had to pry it loose. What do you think, mother? Silence. And then these words, brian, I didn't hear much of Jesus in it and what she was really saying was that I was a little bit confrontational. There wasn't much gentleness in my voice. So I learned I had accountability at multi-levels and my mother assured me that the Spirit of Christ needed to be there in full measure or if not, she would catch it.

Michael Van Pelt:

Oh, this is great. Thanks a lot, brian. Does that mean now I have to do a similar confession? Isn't it interesting?

Michael Van Pelt:

Because there's no doubt sometime that when you look at our public life it creates an anger. I've struggled with that many times and I've listened. You just want to say, hey, like wake up, this is not going to go in the right direction. And sometimes the way that I've kind of struggled through this, and even the way I observe others and look to hire people and, in my role as CEO, look to lead other people, is can you exchange anger for sadness and I'm not saying there's not a role sometime for anger at the injustices of the world?

Michael Van Pelt:

Scripture has many examples of godly men in Scripture being angry about the injustice of the world and the sin in the eyes of God. So I'm not dismissing that. But when I meet people that are living in more anger and bitterness than I am, than they are in sadness, then I get a little hesitant and I go okay, michael, be careful. That's that's. Is that the posture that will be both God honoring and, quite frankly, be accessible at that? And that's not an easy judgment, that's not an easy judgment call. We struggle with that all the time at Cardus and you know, sometimes you do run into situations where there's an animosity that does get your kind of backup and we're broken and sinful people as well. I will listen, I will remember, remember the model of your mother speaking to you. Brian, I will share that with my colleagues at a staff meeting next week.

Brian Stiller:

How are you funded? I mean, this is the expenditure of your academics, of your researcher, of your public policy initiatives. This is a costly venture. How do you fund it?

Michael Van Pelt:

There's two ways of looking at this. We have about an $8 million budget on an annual basis. Interestingly, 25 years ago when I started, there was $42,000 in the bank, so I have no idea how that $8 million comes every year, brian, but if you had to parse it out, we have thousands of thousands of supporters and many of those supporters are what we would call gifts. They could range from $50 to $500. And there is a group of what I call Christian philanthropists who have committed themselves to having influence in our public life and many of them own businesses. Many of them may have capital wealth from previous families or many of them steward others' wealth, wealth from others. They're the ones who are the major funders, probably fund 90% of the class of Cardas.

Michael Van Pelt:

That model is not dissimilar from literally the majority of think tanks all across North America. We don't experience it that much in Canada. Canada doesn't have a vibrant think tank space and think tank, being kind of in between the academic world and the political world, is sitting in that middle space there of influence. Cardiff is in a bit of an anomaly that way and, quite frankly, we need a lot more people of faith and institutions, and there are some really, really good ones in Canada. Don't get me wrong, but we're disproportionately weaker on this front, and that's partly been governments in Canada have been much more active historically in public policy development, and that needs to change, and organizations like CARDUS need to be contributing in this space, and there needs to be a lot more of us.

Brian Stiller:

Michael, you're celebrating your 25th anniversary. It's a good moment to give pause to reflection of the past. But what do you anticipate? What's your vision of the coming years?

Michael Van Pelt:

It's an exciting question to ask. In the last five years, maybe the last 10 years, it's taken a long time for CARDUS to build the reputation and confidence of a broader public about the work that we do, about the research that we conduct, about the arguments that we make. And we are now in that space where we are one of the leading think tanks in Canada, which is a gift, which is a tremendous gift to be a faith-based organization that's deeply Christian to be one. If you look at the dollar amounts, leading think tanks in Canada, if you look at media engagement, that kind of thing. Now the question is how do we steward that? How do we steward that gift into the future?

Michael Van Pelt:

I think number one we have to stick to our knitting. There are so many issues around education, around health, around family that are still the fundamental kind of baseline issues. So, for example, we always say you can talk economics all day long, but if you lose basic family integrity, if you have educational weakness, if you can't provide for health of a society, you're not going to build a productive economic community. It's just simple, you know. Just a simple fact. So we need to stick to our knitting on those issues. It's probably every week that someone is calling us at CARDUS saying you know what? We need a Christian voice in this area. We need a Christian voice in prisons and criminal reform. We need a Christian voice in the environment, or you need to tackle this issue. There's where we just need to be discerning as we grow. They're largely right. There are many places that we can enter into and offer a robust approach and thoughtful ideas about what it means to be Christian in that space, and there's where we need to just be stewardly with our resources and strategic with our judgments. One little point to add we are at an interesting cultural moment.

Michael Van Pelt:

I've talked about decline and I hold to that argument, but I have never seen in all my 25 years at Cardus more of a yearning for a different kind of future.

Michael Van Pelt:

The anxiousness that we are seeing in young people, for example the most recent kind of existential crisis about our own nation state and our relationship with the United States shows a, shows that anxiousness in the population. They're struggling with what to look for in the future. They're struggling with what a good purpose will be in the future, and there's where not only Cardus but many other Christian organizations, and especially the church, can play a really powerful and invigorating role in our public life, because we have a purpose and that purpose is not for our own interest. That purpose is for the love of our neighbor. That purpose is to live lives and build communities that are vibrant and that are flourishing.

Michael Van Pelt:

And even in cultural decline, even in an environment where you're sometimes seeing really troublesome animosity, there's that little yearning that just never can go away and there's that desire for a tell us, for an end, for a purpose that you and I know what that's about. So that kind of gives me a lot of hope for what a growing Cardus could look like. It also gives me hope for what a church can do and for what individual Christians can do in our public life today. Brian.

Brian Stiller:

Michael, we celebrate your 25 years of service and the work that Cardas is doing, and thank you, michael, for joining us today on Evangelical 360.

Michael Van Pelt:

And Brian, thank you for your many, many years of leadership and your statesmanship in our public life. You're a model to us all. Blessings to you.

Brian Stiller:

Thanks again. Thanks, michael, for joining us today and for taking the time to respond to some tough questions about how our faith can still have an impact on society today, and thank you for being a part of the podcast. I'd be grateful if you'd subscribe and share this episode. Use hashtag Evangelical360. If you'd like to learn more about today's guest, check the show notes or description below, and if you haven't already received my free ebook and newsletter, just go to brianstillercom. So thanks for joining us today, until next time.

Brian Stiller:

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