evangelical 360°

Ep. 53 / Generosity and True Change through the Transformational Business Network with Kim Tan

• Host Brian Stiller • Season 1 • Episode 53

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What if the most generous thing you could do wasn’t another grant, but a business that outlives the donation? In this episode we sit down with Dr. Kim Tan—biochemist, venture investor, and pioneer of social impact funds—to rethink how giving can build jobs, dignity and systems that last. 

From a high-risk bet on a safari reserve in South Africa’s poorest province, to a network of 10,000 low-cost schools educating three million children, Dr. Tan shows how enterprise-based solutions can scale where traditional aid often stalls. 

We unpack the core thesis: nations don’t transform through charity alone; they transform when capital builds real companies. Dr. Kim explains why the “missing middle” of small and medium enterprises is critical in emerging markets, how patient capital and hands-on mentorship reduce risk, and why the first screen is financial viability—even for mission-driven work. 

Faith is woven throughout the conversation. Dr. Kim shares a kingdom-centered vision that is incarnational, sacrificial, and focused on transformation. Whether you’re a philanthropist, investor, or believer who wants your generosity to matter for the long haul, this conversation offers a clear, tested roadmap for turning compassion into sustainable prosperity.

If you'd like to learn more about the Transformational Business Network you can go to their website and social media for Asia and Africa. 

And please don't forget to share this episode and join the conversation on YouTube! 

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Brian Stiller:

Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360. I'm your host, Brian Stiller. Giving is a core part of the Christian faith. I've come to see generosity as a direct outgrowth of one's vision of life. We've become accustomed to hearing appeals from numerous Christian organizations, such as World Vision, calling us to support their efforts in bringing healing and wholeness to people in need, or to respond to disasters all over the world. Who can turn away from a starving child in Sudan or Gaza, from the broken bodies in shattered homes in Ukraine, or the residents of crumbling homes after an earthquake in Turkey? Bill Gates has said that when governments and business cannot deliver solutions to human problems, philanthropy must step in. But how much does this giving really change life for people on the ground? Does it just get us to another month when more aid is required? That's the topic my guest today, Dr. Kim Tan, will be talking about. Kim is from Malaysia. He holds a PhD in biochemistry and did three postdoctoral fellowships with the Medical Research Council in the UK. He chairs a private fund management company group that specializes in biotech and venture capital investments. But here's the surprising part. This biochemist has turned his skills and energy to generating activities of philanthropy that changed lives and communities. He has a distinct approach that he says delivers lasting solutions to very real problems. He's been a pioneer of social impact investing for over 25 years and is a partner in several social impact funds in Africa and Asia. On today's program, we'll learn why Dr. Tan got involved in this work and hear his unique, exciting ideas for making Christian giving and investing more effective. And thanks to you for being a part of this podcast. Please consider sharing this episode with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, please hit the subscribe button and join the conversation on YouTube in the comments below. Now to my guest, Dr. Kim Tan. Dr. Kim Tan, thank you for joining us on Evangelical 360.

Kim Tan:

Absolute pleasure, Brian.

Brian Stiller:

Kim, you have a remarkable career and message for us today. As a philanthropist, when I think of philanthropy, I think of an organization or a ministry going to a foundation, Bill Gates or whomever, and asking for a foundation gift to fund a project or fund an organization. But you come at philanthropy in a very, very different way. You have this notion of sustainable prosperity. What is your vision? What's the idea that drives your philanthropy?

Kim Tan:

I think uh, Brian, very simply put, you know, there is no evidence in history at all that any country has ever been transformed through aid and charity and philanthropy. They've all been transformed through some kind of economic investments. Um, and and so what we are doing basically is looking at a social or environmental issue and saying instead of doing charity and doing philanthropy, can we, primarily as business people, design enterprise-based solutions that are more sustainable, more scalable, and also I think confers more dignity on the people on the grants. Uh so instead of just kind of continuous grant making where people are just spending so much time just trying to do reports and apply for more grants, we really wanted to identify talented local entrepreneurs and see if we can give them enough capital, enough mentorship to help them to grow uh and scale their business and so that they become sustainable and create more jobs.

Brian Stiller:

Kim, a few years ago, an African writer wrote a book called Dead Aid, which described the the gifting towards various groups. In in the countries that uh of the continent Africa that she was writing about, she felt that that charity became welfare, which diminished the activities of people in living in a sustainable and economic environment. Is that what you're saying?

Kim Tan:

I think so. Um so that was the ambition moylo when she was at Goldman Sachs.

Brian Stiller:

Yes.

Kim Tan:

Uh and uh, but maybe we shouldn't throw out the philanthropy. There is a key role in philanthropy, even in what we're doing, and and we can we can talk a little about that. So there is an important role for philanthropy and for charity still, particularly in areas that are really difficult uh to find enterprise-based solutions. Uh, but the reality is, unless countries develop economically, they will not be able to provide healthcare for their people. They will not be able to build their roads. So, you know, are are we are we gonna continue looking to countries to be dependent on you know Western nations uh for philanthropy and aid for their education, for their healthcare sector, and for their uh sanitation and and so on. I I think at the end of the day, what we want to see is countries and communities that are economically uh strong enough to provide for themselves.

Brian Stiller:

I want to cycle back and get into those into those, but I'd like to establish who you are. You're a Malaysian, you're a biochemist, now you live in England as a philanthropist, as an investor. Give us a thumbnail sketch of your life and how you ended up where you are. Grew up poor.

Kim Tan:

Uh parents were immigrants from China into Malaysia, um, and then came to Britain. Um I've had I kind of had three careers, Brian. You know, the first career has been in science, um, allergy around cancer of the pancreas and diabetes and stem cells. And then I bailed out often by third postdoctor because I frankly wasn't smart enough uh to be a uh a top-flight stylist, and then went into a second career in biotech. I began building a number of biotech companies, ended up running a biotech uh fund. And then uh on a trip to South Africa for the first time in Africa, some 25 years ago now, I just uh spent half a day in the largest slum just outside Cape Town and became disillusioned with my own philanthropy. I thought I could write another check here, but it wasn't going to make any difference. And it wasn't a good use of the talent and the gifts that God has given me. And I had a very strong calling then to not run a second biotech fund, but to uh use my experience in in venture capital to start building enterprises uh in South Africa. And uh there chose the poorest province, which was the Eastern Cape, and ended up building a safari game park uh there. And and that's the really has been the journey. And I learned a lot during those years that you can, if you're intentional and if you're not looking for a single bottom line return on your investment, you can invest in this kind of way and uh and grow these businesses to scale.

Brian Stiller:

What was going on in your mind as you were there 25 years ago, you see the poverty. What how did a game part come to mind? And what did you have in mind that you needed to do to generate this idea, this this enterprise?

Kim Tan:

Well, um, it was just data. Brian, um I I, you know, if I was going to fly in and out uh into South Africa from London, I wanted to go to the poorest province. So I asked, where was the poorest province? They all said Eastern Cape. Secondly, the question was, well, what can you build in the Eastern Cape, right? Um, and uh uh what I saw was clearly that destination number one for tourists was Cape Town. Still is, it is a beautiful city. Second was Kruger National Park, where they went for their safari experience. And the third was what is called the Garden Route, which is the um the drive along the coast, uh, all the way from Cape Town up to Port Elizabeth. And at the end of that, there was just nothing to hold tourists. 75%, 80% of them just flew out from there. So I decided to sort of build something there, and uh I was going to do something small, my faith wasn't that big. Uh, it was, you know, a country I didn't know. And and bear in mind, this was the first year after Nelson Mandela had stepped down. This was uh Taboe Mbeke's uh first year as president, and everyone was predicting civil war. The rent was depreciating by the week. It was just a really crazy time. Long story, I was gonna build something small and thought that would be my sort of discharging of this calling. Uh, but uh the National Parks Board heard about this crazy Malaysian in London wanting to do something with land and animals and called me and said, Look, you know, we run the third largest national park here in Port Elizabeth. We want to expand it. Would you be interested to come and collaborate with us? And so, you know, I flew down and they flew down on a plane from Pretoria, and we flew up on a plane, and they showed me the whole area. And right there in the in in just north of the national park there, uh, I went on the ground, and you know, the district had 85% unemployment.

Brian Stiller:

Let me ask you one question. Let me just go back to why did you want to go to the poorest place in South Africa? What was be what was in your mind to even want that?

Kim Tan:

Well, I thought if if we're gonna prove this out as a way of tackling poverty, let's go to the poorest part. The easiest thing would have been just to fly into Cape Town and do something in Cape Town.

Brian Stiller:

Yeah, but I I still want to know what what was in your mind, like what were you even thinking about when you said you want to prove something? Uh what was what was your what was your motivation, what was your vision that that led you even to South Africa, to the poorest place? What did you have in mind to do?

Kim Tan:

Oh, the the the reason for South Africa was just friendship. Uh we had friends, very good friends, uh from my days at university, and uh we were visiting them. So that was the reason there. And I just fell in love with the country. And uh when I had this calling, I just wanted to go to the poorest part of the country and you know, see if we could really do something that can be transformative for the community. But what was that calling? The calling was really to use my gifts, my resources, my time to create these kinds of enterprises that can be transformative. You see, Brian, 60 years ago, the GDP of Ghana and Kenya was higher than the GDP of Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, Thailand, Hong Kong, right? And yet Africa has received the equivalent of six Marshall Plants. Asia has not had any kind of aid, uh, or even to this day, no real philanthropy and certainly no microfinance. And yet these countries, these tiger economies have transformed themselves really through uh foreigners uh investing in our countries there, uh and creating jobs for our people, upskilling us, and then inspiring a generation of local entrepreneurs. And Africa is not gonna be any different unless we intentionally go and invest to build these kinds of enterprises. Uh, nothing much is gonna change. So that's the motivation for going into uh that part of South Africa, 85% unemployment. I, as a philanthropist, bro, I could have built a school, a clinic, an orphanage, all the standard stuff, but nothing was gonna change. All right. So so the vision very much was to create a large enough enterprise uh that could catalyze change. And what happened? Well, over a three and a half year period, a lot of drinking of Reibos tea, uh, we managed to buy 21 farms, uh 40,000 acres. Uh we then had to clean it up, lots of internal fences and windmills and buildings, and then ripped out all the foreign vegetation, fenced 75 kilometers of elephant-proof fencing, and then brought in big game uh into that part of South Africa for the first time in 150 years, and then spent two years building a luxury lodge with the staff village, not knowing several things. One, can you really rehabilitate degraded land? Two, will animals like being transferred there? Uh, would they be happy? Three, would tourists come? Four, uh, we don't know whether we could intentionally hire local people and upskill them to serve five-star guests. Those are all the unknowns. Um, and uh, and that was that was part of the part of the experiment, I guess.

Brian Stiller:

And what did you find? Did you were you able to train indigenous local personnel to to serve this enterprise?

Kim Tan:

Yeah, um, you know, but for a hiatus over COVID, um we are about four four years behind planned, but the the whole enterprise is now profitable, pays a dividend. We employ all, entirely employ now, I think, uh all local people from our community.

Brian Stiller:

So what were the what were the hard lessons you learned from this that are serving you now as you as you continue into other uh impact investments? I think the first thing is you've got to have the clear calling.

Kim Tan:

I mean this is tough. This is really tough. I think then you've got to be patient, you know, with that calling. You will have a lot of disappointment, and particularly disappointment with people who don't have life skills. So we have had lots of disappointments with people whom we think uh have the potential to grow and develop to be leaders. Uh, and then something happens, usually drink. Alcohol is a big problem for us. Um, and um and drink has really destroyed quite a number of really promising people we've had over the years. So you've got to be patient. And and and more than anything else, I think, Brian, you you've gotta um you've gotta have the ability to create a culture where everyone can flourish. You know, we don't come in as donors, we come in as shareholders, we come in as um, you know, fellow directors uh with the with the entrepreneurs. Uh, and and we want to create a culture where everyone can flourish. It's too easy, you know, in the past to have a donor uh recipient kind of relationship. Uh we we think in this kind of way, we can say to the people that we're investing with, you know, look, we're we're shareholders with you.

Brian Stiller:

Was the notion of of investment to create a social impact, was this an idea that that you learn from somebody else? Or did it somehow s come out of your christian Christian vision of service?

Kim Tan:

I it it just it just kind of it just kind of made sense. And having come from Southeast Asia, seeing the transformation of the Tiger economies, it was clear to me, you know, that there's no other way for long-term transformation of countries, um, except through investments. And particularly investments in the small, medium-sized enterprises, right? In a lot of the emerging economies, you have a lot of um micro enterprises, small businesses, and then you have a small number of very large multinationals. But in between, there are very, very few small, medium-sized enterprises. But they are the backbones of all our developed economies. Almost, I think, 90% of all the businesses registered here in the UK are all small, medium-sized enterprises. Enterprises that employ 50 people up to you know several hundred. Um, they are the backbone of all our economies. But in Africa and in emerging countries, they're absent. It's what economists call the missing middle.

Brian Stiller:

How many staff would you have in South Africa?

Kim Tan:

At the large, uh about 60 permanent, full-time. And then we have lots of uh contract workers who come into specific projects. Where did that? So you started there.

Brian Stiller:

What was your next project?

Kim Tan:

My next project was uh a low-cost school in the slum, the largest slum in Nigeria, uh in Kenya called Kibira. Uh here is a uh a couple who had sold their educational publishing business in the United States. Uh, she was a teacher, they went gallivanting wrong wall, and she spent some time teaching in China, then got thrown out, ended up in the Kabira, and they saw the problems there and said, look, you know, we we need to come here and fix this. We got to know them, and uh there was nothing, no due diligence needed because there was nothing to show. It was just an idea, and they were willing to move their family there. Uh, and we just gave them a check and said, look, go build a few schools, do your iteration, change your model, do whatever's needed. When you have a few schools, we can then bring some investors along and you know, and get it properly funded. Um, I mean and and we and basically we charge $5 per child per month. Everything is uh the curriculum is on uh tablets. Parents pay us by mobile money, uh, we pay teachers and and and suppliers by mobile money, and uh that way we cut down the back office cost, and that's why we can make it affordable at five dollars roughly uh per child per month. And that went from, you know, and and when we made that investment, Ryan, it was really tackling the whole problem of you know the horrible education standards. Uh we we fail our children generation after generation, uh year after year. Um so this is our way of thinking, looking at that problem, saying, can we use an enterprise-based approach? Today, that school we invested in was in 2009. Today, that is is now 10,000 schools with 3 million kids in schools every day, primary schools in six countries. So, you know, we we've learned that you can, if you're intentional and you're not looking for a single bottom line return, you can invest in this kind of way and build these businesses to scale.

Brian Stiller:

So, using these two examples in South Africa and Kenya, how much money is needed to invest in these projects? What's the capital required?

Kim Tan:

It it all depends. I mean, you know, when you're buying land and building properties, it's it's a lot of money. Um, you're talking millions. And likewise, when we started the school, that was, you know, it wasn't expensive. It was each school's budget was about $40,000, $50,000 for the school. But now that it's expanded, uh, you know, we've had to over several rounds of financing around. I would say probably, I don't know, $50,000, $60 million have gone into the schools now to expand into six countries.

Brian Stiller:

You bring that at capital investment into the project, and you expect that that project will produce revenue that's profitable. If it's not profitable, it dies.

Kim Tan:

We we can't do it. So so this is the interesting thing, Brian. You know, although we call ourselves social impact, our first screen is actually financial. Because if it's not profitable, we just become a charity. Um, so so we need to know how much money do you need, over what period of time, and we if we trust the management and we have can have a role in terms of strategy and and guiding the management, we will then reserve that funding so that these businesses don't run out of cash. Uh and um so yeah, we're talking, we're talking real investments.

Brian Stiller:

And so the your investor expects a reasonable return. Correct.

Kim Tan:

And it all depends on the investor. We have investors who are family offices who say, look, and this is what we'll say to them, carry on doing your philanthropy, right? There is an important place for philanthropy. Carry on doing that. But maybe do a small allocation and we'll help you do this kind of investing. And they would say to us, we can't take any return, just give our capital back. So that's fine, that's great. We have others, smaller shareholders who say, you know, my bond rates, well, 10 years ago, bond rates were at 0.5%. You know, so if you can give me 2% plus the social impact, I'm happy. Uh, but now with our more structured funds, so over the over the last 20 years, we've been challenging people to leave their day jobs, running tech VCs and PE funds to now run these social impact funds. And now our main shareholders are the sovereign wealth funds, uh, the North funds of this world, the BII here in the UK and the FMOs. Um, and they are looking for a return. So we we we are now in the uh area where we're having to provide much higher rates of return than, say, the family offices and and private individuals require.

Brian Stiller:

Uh let's bring this down to an average donor, maybe a significant donor. So all their life, they have they have operated on the basis of I'll make my investment and get my return on this side, and on this side, I will be, I'll run my own charity, I'll run my own donation portfolios, and I will give money to various ministries or to NGOs that are doing good. So you have those two pockets. What do you suggest to people to think about as they look at their own resources and how they handle the resources as it relates to the well-being of others?

Kim Tan:

I think carry on with your your the two pockets, but maybe on the philanthropic pocket to do an allocation uh if they want to see sustainable uh enterprises on the ground. If they're just happy to keep giving out grants to these projects year after year after year, then fine, carry on doing that. But if they want to see real change so that people become independent, so they don't have to come and ask for another grant in three years' time, then maybe think about doing some kind of investing in this kind of way, where you're you're not looking just for a single border-line return. You're looking for a social impact, you're looking for an environmental return. Um and and this is the message we've given to family officers and philanthropists. You know, there are areas that are really tough to do uh using an enterprise approach. You know, education is one of them, health is the other one, you know, but long-term, Brian, do we want to carry on providing this kind of charity just for education and health? Or do we want these countries to become stronger so that they can then provide our own uh citizens uh for health care and education?

Brian Stiller:

Very good question. What comes to mind is thinking of a donor, within our evangelical community, often our donations are towards those kind of ministries that specialize in evangelism or discipleship, the reaching of the world with the message of Christ. Now, that seems to be a different objective than the social impact that you are describing. Those are two different arrows, if you like.

Kim Tan:

Probably two sides of a coin, I would say. Um, you know, the gospel needs to be in word and deed. Can't just be in word only. Um, you know, show me love. How do we love our neighbor? Right? And don't be surprised. And what this is what surprises us again and again when we do this, people ask you, why are you doing this? You know, and what better opening would you have to share your faith, to share why you're doing this, the motivation, you know. Why are you coming into this 85% unemployment place? Why are you coming to Islam to build toilets, you know, so that we can use uh have have clean toilets and proper sanitation? Why are you doing this? Well, because we we have a God who is compassionate towards the poor, we have a God who calls us to um preach good news to the poor, to set the captives free, um to release the oppressed from oppression, so that the blind might see. So and that might hear the year of the Lord's favor, the Jubilee year. So those those are great opportunities for us. We we cannot disclose or describe the kinds of opportunities that open up for us uh with the gospel because we work in sensitive countries.

Brian Stiller:

Have we and I'm speaking here of evangelical community, which is a large community globally, one quarter of the world's. Christians, have we been caught in a tension between the capitalist initiative which you've been describing as being somehow antithetical to the generous heart of a Christian? Do we see those two as separate separate sides or separate visions of life?

Kim Tan:

I think we evangelicals have a kind of schizophrenic view and attitude towards capitalism. You know, I think on the one hand, I mean, many, many evangelicals uh are very capitalistic in their outlook, right? And now on the other hand, we are afraid of profit. We're afraid of making money. You know, so we've been accused of making money, you know, from the poor. Uh well, you know, in in our education, right? And and and when I first saw the data, uh, Brian, that private schools in the slums perform better than government schools, I just reacted. I thought, how can you charge the poor for for education? It should be free, right? I mean, and I've been a beneficiary of free education, courtesy of the generosity of the British government. You know, they've given me scholarships after scholarship and fellowships, uh and even given me a free grant to start my first biotech company. So how can you charge the poor for education? But you know, the interesting thing is the psychology. When it's free, it's not valued. When you run courses free, people will come for the first week and the second week, and by the third week, they all drop out. When it's free, parents don't feel they can insist on better standards for their children. But when it's $5 roughly per child per month, this is now an investment because it could be about 25-30% of the average monthly wage. Now they're turning up at the head teacher's office and saying, Why isn't my daughter performing better? And because also it's now they see it as an investment, they take more interest in their children's homework. And we all know, you know, if parents are engaged with their children's education, the kids are gonna perform a lot better. So, you know, we have this kind of um schizophrenic um relationship with with capitalism. But without capital, countries are not gonna change. Uh and and this is the the really the big, big need for all these countries and and the entrepreneurs' uh access to patient capital.

Brian Stiller:

Globally, there's a variety of initiatives like Opportunity International, which is a micro lending. Is that the kind of uh uh social impact they that you think is needed? Yes.

Kim Tan:

Um I I think um there is uh uh still a place for for microcredit and microfinance institutions. Uh I describe it as the fastest way to lift people out of abject poverty into normal poverty. What is the next stage then? Right? And that's where that missing will, that's where the small, medium-sized enterprise comes in. In many countries, it's very easy to borrow $100, even $1,000 through microfinance. But try borrowing $50,000 to half a million dollars to scale your business. Uh in Kenya, the uh interest rate is 18% for top-tier companies, businesses. If you're not even in the top tier, not in first tier, it's 28% interest rates per year. You can't you can't build businesses that way.

Brian Stiller:

Your own personal life seems to be shaped by a particular Christian worldview. Uh, was that something that you were raised with in your family, or was this something that has come to you uh as a scholar and and as an investor?

Kim Tan:

Uh so there was no Christianity in and in our in our family at all. And if anything, um there was uh a real antagonism. And um I became I reluctantly became Christian just prior to university through the help of the likes of C. S. Lewis and Francis Schaeffer um helping me to think through uh some of the problems and and questions I had in my own mind. Um but in terms of of my own understanding, yeah, it's it's it's it's really learned. Um and primarily, I suppose, the overarching kind of guide for me uh is the kingdom of God. That was Jesus' own singular focus, and and you know that's that's my been my focus too. Kingdom where there is righteousness and and the word righteousness is exactly the same word, decay was in Greek for the word justice. Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his justice. Uh and the whole Tiboli thing is about freedom and justice. Uh that there should be no poor among us in this kingdom. So, so oh the uh big kind of North Star for me uh is always has always been the kingdom.

Brian Stiller:

And how does the kingdom work as it relates to your investment?

Kim Tan:

I see the kingdom certainly in a number of different um with a number of different features. I think first of all, the kingdom for me is incarnational. Right. It's great to be able to send money to a foreign country, to an agency, to uh to you know somewhere uh an angel working in the inner city, but it's nothing like turning up on the ground, feet on the ground, and serving there. When you have money, the easiest thing to do in the world is just write checks and give money. It's very hard to give our time, and and I keep being reminded again and again, our Lord gave us his time. His time. So that's one. I think the other thing for me in terms of the kingdoms, it's it's sacrificial. If there's anything we want to we anything we learn from the cross is that it's sacrificial. And therefore, for me, where there is no sacrifice, there is no eternal value. You know, I can give a hundred thousand dollars to charity or to uh a mission, but if I in my asset have a hundred million, that's not a sacrifice. That's not a sacrifice. So the kingdom is about sacrifice. The kingdom, I think, also is about um transformation. Everywhere Jesus went, things changed, things happen. All right, people got fed. Um and there was healing, uh, there was restoration. Relationships were restored, broken lives were restored, the woman at the well, the woman with the alabaster vase, um, there was restoration relationships of broken lives pieced together. That's that's kingdom everywhere we go. That should be happening. So when I see ex-offenders coming out of prison in Singapore from our call center there, and they come out and they have lives restored, and their relationship with their families restored, and then they're working for us now in the call center of the city. They now have a job, they have their dignity and something of the image of God restored in them. That's that for me is a kingdom. That's that's what we that's what we're about. Um so it's it's it's about human flourishing. The kingdom, wherever Jesus went, there was flourishing, immense flourishing all around him, right? And and and that to me is is is what the kingdom should be about. The the Jewish um uh theologians have a have have a really nice phrase, Brian, which we love. It's called tikkunulam, which translated means um repairing the world in a state of disrepair. And that's the calling, right? It's really what Colossians and Ephesians talk about, the summing of all things, restoration, all things, uh into Christ. Um, and they they describe it as tikkunolam. The kingdom is about tikkunolam. We're out there as agents to repair this world that is that is broken in so many different ways. Um, and and so those for me uh are sort of the sort of kingdom features uh that that I live by.

Brian Stiller:

Dr. Kim Tan, thank you so much for joining us today on Evangelical 360. That's a wonderful way to conclude this first interview that we have with you, and thanks for joining us today.

Kim Tan:

It's my pleasure, Brian. All the best.

Brian Stiller:

And many people will be surprised at your ideas, but you have used them to transform lives, communities, and industries. And thank you to our faithful for being a part of the podcast. Be sure to like this episode and subscribe wherever you watch or listen to this podcast. And if you'd like to learn more about today's guest, you can check the show notes for links and info. And if you haven't already received my free ebook and newsletter, just go to BrianStiller.com. Thanks again. Until next time.